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New Ultra Install
Grumpy_2
Member Posts: 82
If only I had the blasted AM-4 modules from Weil-McLain, I could have these puppies saving some real money in operating costs. Have a look, your critque will be welcomed and appreciated. Grumpy
PS: Before someone asks, I just washed the floor before taking these photos, so they're not leaks!!
PS: Before someone asks, I just washed the floor before taking these photos, so they're not leaks!!
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Comments
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Looks pretty
darn nice to me lad!
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excellent
Beautiful job on the layout Grumpy. One question though, doesn't the electrical control's being under the circ's concern you? If a circ goes bad and someone pop's it out without paying attention.....
Excellent job on the detail, something to be very proud of!!0 -
Leaks?, We don't have no stinkin leaks!
Nice job Grumpy! Seeing the photo progression was great. I didn't see the second boiler in the 1st photo, but the end result was even more surprising.
What is the control strategy? Are the boilers being staged so that they run equal time or are they coming on line "as needed"? Chris0 -
Tekmar 265 is the heart of the control system, operating on outdoor reset. I should say "Will be the heart" if I ever receive the blasted AM-4's. It will be set up with equal run time via that controller. This replaced two 600K Bryan copper boilers that were neglected and abused for 45 years. I managed to get a maintenance contract with this install so the same fate will not await these excellent (Ultra's) boilers. I have them set up right now on descending output temps, 160°,150°,140° and they are running like a finely tuned instrument. I can hardly wait to see them in full operation via the Tekmar 265.0 -
LCHMB, Yes it is indeed a concern, but with the limited area I was given in which to install this system, I'll have to live with it. Having the maintenance contract on it will assure that if someone floods a control, it will be me! And I don't like buying replacements for stupid or careless actions, so I don't forsee that as being an immediate problem (at least not for the next five years.)0 -
Did you add any
water treatment. I have two Ultras installed now and this is my biggest concern with aluminum HXers. I used Nobel No-Burst AL in the snowmelt one, and I will go with the multi metal Rhomar for the heating one.
I'm impressed with the Ultras I have running. Very easy to get to all the serviceable components, should this be required.
hot rod
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Now thats craftsmanship...
Fine work there. Good to see there are people still proud of the work they do... One thing to pick on. It's hard to tell but it looks like the PRV discharge tubes are within an inch or two of the floor? If so code requires no closer than six inches... I quess so it won't spray back up??? Dam fine work though. - Your not from North Jersey area are you? I could use a couple competent Hydronics guys to put on my list of refered contractors.0 -
PRV pipes are exactly 6" AFF. I am also a stickler for small details like that. Thanks for the kind words, it makes a guy feel good when someone who understands the craft says a good word about the work. North Jersey is a bit out of my operating range (NE Ohio) but thanks for the compliment.
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Yahoo!
Wow, that's a very pretty, functional, and elegant install.
The whole system is easy to follow, there are isolation valves upstream and downstream from the circulators, the wiring is straight, you even left the operating instructions!
If there is one thing my semi-blind eyes don't see is two isolation valves for the individual ultras... I only see one valve per ultra, which may make replacing the circulator or ultra a bit of a challenge unless you want to shut down the whole system. However, knowing you, the second valve is probably simply not visible from the perspective of the camera.
It's pretty safe to say that the building owners are going to be happy, the maintenance folk are going to be ecstatic, and that you should be proud of your install. Congrats again and I look forward to your next install on the Wall.0 -
Added a couple of more pic's for clarity.
> Wow, that's a very pretty, functional, and
> elegant install.
>
> The whole system is easy to
> follow, there are isolation valves upstream and
> downstream from the circulators, the wiring is
> straight, you even left the operating
> instructions!
>
> If there is one thing my
> semi-blind eyes don't see is two isolation valves
> for the individual ultras... I only see one valve
> per ultra, which may make replacing the
> circulator or ultra a bit of a challenge unless
> you want to shut down the whole system. However,
> knowing you, the second valve is probably simply
> not visible from the perspective of the camera.
> It's pretty safe to say that the building owners
> are going to be happy, the maintenance folk are
> going to be ecstatic, and that you should be
> proud of your install. Congrats again and I look
> forward to your next install on the Wall.
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Added a couple of more pic's for clarity.
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Additives
The church has a member who is in the "water treatment business" that is trying to get his junk into the system. I refused his offer and told them I will void the warranty if he touches my system. I have a message off to George at Rhomar for some product information. The PH is excellent at the moment, and I intend to keep it that way.0 -
Pumping away?
Beautiful install, work of art! Question. In the Ultra instructions, the diagram for installation shows the secondary loop circulator "pushing" return water into the boiler. Just curious why these boiler were "pumped away."0 -
It is
a work of art. Maxi Kudos0 -
Pumping away...
Pumping away means from the air removal device and expansion tank. Many of the high efficiency boiler want high pressure through the heat exchanger and that is why it appears a bit like that.0 -
Looks great, Grumpy...
Just was wondering too why the pumps on the returns of the boilers....
Also, what size pipe did you use for the headers.... looks like about 2", maybe 2-1/2.... is that enough for 3 - 310's???
Nice job, the comfort and eff. of the new system will gain you much more work.....
Floyd
P.S. WM says that the shortage of the AM-4 mods. is because of unexpected high demand... these things are going over way better than they had anticipated they would. They told me that the supplies should be replentished.......
I have two of them in my truck.....if you get tooo desperate....0 -
J. C. A......
The 265 will give the ability to run either parrellel or sequential modulation.... I prefer the parrellel because it runs the boilers in the lower range of the modulation most of the time. Also the 265 will automatically switch lead boilers when one of then gets 40 more run time hours then the next lower one and therfore keep all the boilers running equal time. With the way they are piped it doesn't matter which is lead as all will see the same return water temps.
The 265/AM-4 combo also gives the control of the reset to the 265, which then controls the modulation of the boilers. The saftey functions all remain with the boilers.
Floyd0 -
i think his \"point of zero pressure change\" is at the...
bottom of the system loop - why it's there should really be your question - and as i dont see a pump on the system loop, the boiler pumps on the return are effectivly pumping away from the PointZeroPressureChange.0 -
Pumps on \"return\"
Several of you have made reference to the reason for the Taco 011's being on the return side of the boilers. I too had a lot of misgivings about that, but Weil McLain specifically shows them there when you are using three or more boilers. I even called the factory rep to ask why, he didn't have a lucid answer other than "that's what engineering has specified" So to keep in absolute compliance, that's where the are.0 -
Pumps on \"return\"
Several of you have made reference to the reason for the Taco 011's being on the return side of the boilers. I too had a lot of misgivings about that, but Weil McLain specifically shows them there when you are using three or more boilers. I even called the factory rep to ask why, he didn't have a lucid answer other than "that's what engineering has specified" So to keep in absolute compliance, that's where they are. I have included the link to the Weil-McLain installation instructions for multiple Ultra's, you'll find the diagram on page 9.0 -
Pumps on \"return\"
Several of you have made reference to the reason for the Taco 011's being on the return side of the boilers. I too had a lot of misgivings about that, but Weil McLain specifically shows them there when you are using three or more boilers. I even called the factory rep to ask why, he didn't have a lucid answer other than "that's what engineering has specified" So to keep in absolute compliance, that's where they are. I have included the link to the Weil-McLain installation instructions for multiple Ultra's, you'll find the diagram on page 9.
http://www.weil-mclain.com/FTP/Ultra 310/550-101-232_0703.pdf0 -
Header piping Size
The headers are of 2 1/2" copper. I used Ultra 230's on this one not the 310's, so I am okay on flow. System needs to move just over 40gpm and the 2 1/2 will give me 45 without a problem.
My supplier has been calling me daily with the bad news about the AM-4's, but the customer is very understanding. He and I are just antsy as hell to see the system under full reset and modulating capability. Soon, I hope I'll get a call saying they have arrived....maybe Santa is bringing them??? Thanks for the offer, and I will keep it in reserve.0 -
usually the air/seperater feed and exp tank are on the header
just past where the multi-boiler close tees connect to , so the pumps on the returns, are effectively pumping away from the point of zero pressure change, besides all other things being equal, better for a water cooled pump to pump cooler return water
it's just that i cant make out where the pump on your system loop is - i must be missing something obvious0 -
usually the air/seperater feed and exp tank are on the header
just past where the multi-boiler close tees connect to , (as they have it in figure 9) so the pumps on the returns, are effectively pumping away from the point of zero pressure change,
it's just that i cant make out from your pictures where the pump on your system loop is - i must be missing something obvious0 -
Far left side of the bank of pumps is the 2" B&G on the vertical riser. That is the main system pump. There are two bypass lines on this system, one is the 1 1/2" line to the right of the pump bank, and the other 1" comes in from the left side up high. The main pump supplies the entire system and the smaller pumps are on the returns of each zone.0 -
Ya know.....
your right.... funny the boiler manual shows the pump on the return and the Multiple boiler supplement shows them on the supply?????? I have a few dual boiler jobs working wonderful with the pumps on the return. Would love to hook the Pc to those boilers and run them through a few paces to see if they recat differently......Actually I meant to say "why aren't the pumps on the return" in my previous post.
Yah, 3-230's should work just fine wth 2-1/2, just thought I remembered you talking of 3- 310's before....
Just a warning... figure on spending at least half a day to setup the boilers and the 265, probably a full day. Lots of stuf to program and they are sooooo much fun to watch as you see the magic happening before your eyes!!!!!!!
Spend a few more bucks and get the Gascom software package.... then you can see in living color the boiler doing it's thing!!!!! Actually it will make setting them up much easier also.....
Have fun!!!
Floyd
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See, I knew it!
The valves were there, I just couldn't see them. This is going to be one sweet system.0 -
looks like the Square Deal to me!
the old plumbing inspector would wonder what you are trying to hide on him if he didnt see water on the ground
so i make it a point to flood the deck after an install and take a push broom to the floor:) 0 -
i suspected as much but...
was too chicken to guess out right, - I have seen allsorts of strange things in my life
anyway - in that case there is no issue with "pumping away" - hope though - that your bypass is adequate, since the returns are separately pumped, and thus are effectively in series with the main pump (pressure wise), think of the total pressure and flow if all the zone return pumps are on, ( reason for close tee loops to begin with)
however - still need to know if you have spring checks on the returns - cant tell from the pics - you might have a heat migration problem to a cool zone that isnt looking for a lot of heat its cooler denser water might fall right into the header and give you gravity heat migration (I call it migraine-ing the worst case scenario is an indirect hot water system producing heat in the summer time)
need more picture especially of the zone supplies got a pipe schematic?, since you sure did a lot of nice stuff, I would not have the guts to do that without working it out on paper first I envy people that are so focused that they can do this in their minds
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We will be happy to help
give me a call with system volume. There are many excellent reasons to pursue cleaning and treatment of all systems. But the clincher is that the system efficiency will be maintained which means lower energy bills over time.
Also system breakdowns and repairs can be reduced. Of course these potential problems would have been the result of water chemistry.
Rhomar Phone is 800-543-5975.0 -
Spring checks
Yes Kal, there are spring checks on each return. They are integral to the pump flanges that were supplied by the local B&G rep. I really like that style of flange too, you can position the pump on angles with ease. As far as a schematic, I penciled out a basic drawing before I started and of course made modifications along the way. I have been very lucky to be able to "visualise" the entire installation and then sketch it out. This kind of work is what makes being a "Hydronician" a pure joy for me. I've sold several more jobs using this one, and a few others that are very similar, as display pieces. Life is good!0 -
I had to take another look ...its like art
it is really a fine thing i am going to go get another cup of coffee and just let it sink in awhile...:) 2 & 1/2 looks perfect to me...0 -
The mark of an artiste...
... is being able to see things the way they ought to be without the need for heavy sketching and so on ahead of time (though all artists sketch all the time).
Kinda reminds me of either Renoir or Michaelangelo who replied that the beautiful sculptures they created were simply them uncovering the beauty locked within the marble that they were working on.
Installs like this may not take as long as David or le Penseur, but they are a work of art nonetheless.0 -
\"poy-fect, itt-zzah re-leh nii-seh-jobb\"
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