steam heat problem

martin

Just installed areplacement steam boiler, comercial building three floors. Measured all radiation 1500 square feet EDR. Weil Mclain LGB 6. Unit is short cycling bad .I think it is pushing the water back out the returns. Pressure does not seem to be leaving boiler.

Steamhead

Things to check

1- air venting. The technique varies with the type of system (one-pipe, Vapor etc) but the basic principle is that the air must be vented before the steam can enter the pipes or radiators. Depending on where the pressure cutout is set (which in almost all cases should be as low as it will go) the trapped air can make the burner short-cycle without any pressure showing on the gauge.

2- the on-off control. How do they control the heat in this building? If it's just a standard thermostat, the anticipator might be set wrong.

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martin

Our problem was we were pushing our water back into our wet returns. By the way this is one pipe steam. Well I looked in all the steam lit. that I had and decided I had brought one of the wet returns back to high. We had to lower the water line on the new install about 30" to get room for riser and header. We now have about 36" from WL to header. So this morning I went back and rerouted my returns so they came in below the inlet of the boiler, before one was only about 8" below WL. A pictureI found in some Burnham lit. always showed the returns lower than inlet. Sorry for the ignorance but there isn't much steam in NE Indiana. Anyway on firing up I now started pushing hot water back the higherof the 2 returns and cycling on the LWCO same as before. Well I didn't want to live in that basement any longer than I had to so I went and got 2 swing checks and installed in the returns, I don't know if this is kosher but it worked. She ran like a champ with just hint of pressure on the gauge for an hour and a half.I know I need to replace some vents, working extremely slow but didnt have a big enough crowbar to pry any more money out of owner. Will these check valves be OK left there. Thanks In advance .

ed wallace

steam problem

what pressure are you running the boiler at

martin

The pressuretrols are set as low as they will go

Steve_35

A picture

is worth a thousand words. Any chance you could take a few shots of the boiler and the near piping and put them up here?

BTW, you did get a copy of Dan's "Lost Art of Steam Heating" and foolow that, right?

Steamhead

Check Valves

should not be needed. Did you install a Hartford Loop on this boiler?

If you're not sure, take some pics and post them here. We'll help you out.

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martin

This is only the second steam system I've worked on in our little town. I know there are a few more around but not a lot. as for Dan's book, no I don't have a copy. I don't plan on going back til monday but will try to take some pics. and post them.

Steve_35

I think you'll find

once you start getting some expertise on steam systems there may be more of them around than you realized.

For $150 or so you can get a wealth of information on steam. I'd highly recommend:

The Lost Art Of Steam Heating $40

A Pocketful of Steam Problems (With Solutions) $20

E.D.R. - Ratings for Every Darn Radiator $40

Linhardt's Field Guide to Steam Heating $50

And maybe for your customers, "We Got Steam Heat! - A Homeowner's Guide to Peaceful Coexistence" $20

I read and reread Lost Art several times (not cover to cover, but bouncing back and forth) and it saved my butt several times on our first steam replacement. Make sure you ALWAYS have your highliter when you read this one. There's just way too much to remember.

martin

Yes we did a hartford loop.Installation is by the manual, other than riser is 36 high off WL 24" offset and then 90 degree and 56" to equalizer drop. Just before Equalizer main supply takes off top and hooks into existing supplies 2-3" 1-2.5". Riser and heder are 4" equalizer is 2". Tee for return is 4" below WL. All pipe is welded other than 2"My thanks to the welder man a true craftsman if i could just keep him from leaving my channellocks everywhere.

Steamhead

Hmmmmm

everything sounds right, maybe your pics will tell us more.

BTW- what part of Indiana? I have some family in Indianapolis....

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martin

Northeast corner town called Angola 101 lakes area.

martin

Here are pics of project.

Steve_35

What size

are those wet returns? There are two of them, right? What size is the equlizer and what size is the return to the boiler?


Were the wet returns replaced? And the boiler cleaned?

martin

There are 2 returns, both wet returns were replaced because of leaks. One was downsized from 2.5 to 2" but a large amount of the original radiation had been removed from that loop probably a 1/3to 1/2. The return to the boiler is also 2".

martin

Sorry I didnt give you a complete answer. The equalizer is 2" as speced in manual for boiler. We cleaned the boiler twice, once with a Hercules boiler cleaner and later with a product called 8-way by Stewart Warner. I cleaned it the second time because of the original problem and thought it might br suging causing it.

martin

Another question is the WL where it should be cold or when its making full steam. My sight glass is full when cold but down to WL line in a few minutes. This morning boiler had flooded from makeup unit going on, I disconnected its power.Also now having problems with heat in certain parts of building but am fairly certain it is vents because condition didnt exist till we fixed a couple of major leaks in main supplies, rubber gaskets in flanges that wern't rubber anymore. What size main vent do I need We replaced one with a Dole #4 it had an Ideal#820 dont know if they corispond and supplier couldn't tell me. Line with low heat has totally defunct main vent I think.

Unknown

I think....

I think your return connection to the boiler is too small, all of the way to the equalizer.

JM_2

Skimming

> I think your return connection to the boiler is

> too small, all of the way to the equalizer.

JM_2

Skimming

What about a good skimming to get at the floating oil. Oli can cause foaming which can make the water line drop quickly.

martin

It appears that most of our problem was a squzzy boiler. I talked to Weil Mclain tech. help today and he said dirty boiler. I said I had cleaned it twice with cleaners and he said dirty boiler. So we gave it a dose of TSP for 2 hours, skimmed for 15 min. drained and refilled and fired it off.It appears to be running fine. I rolled the check valves on there side to see if it would push water out the returns, it didn't. Will go back and remove later but am sick of that boiler room. Now one more ? we have very little steam at about 3 radiators, if you take out the vent it sounds like an old person with emphysema. At the main in the basement directly below we have great steam, it must be obstructed or something. Does anybody know of some way of cleaning a line like that.

Reinvent

Not an expert but... I had a similar problem in a two family house. The unit on the second/third floor was not heating evenly, the second floor got warm faster than the third with the thermostat on the second floor. Turns out the rads on the second floor had their valves wide open. Turned them down half way and presto third floor was nice and toasty.
BTW, before this adjustment was made the third floor rads would also sound 'like an old person with emphysema'.
I am told to adjust the steam vents on the rads first, if you can. Use the valves second if there is no adjustment on the vents.