Western NY - anyone know geothermal?

radiant_4

Anyone know anyone who knows anything about geothermal heat pumps in western New York? After 4 years our heating system is still not working properly. Have tried three contractors and keep throwing money at the system. Need help that knows what they are doing. ECONAR heat pumps and can't get a rep to visit.

Ron Schroeder_2

Hi,

I'm not in western NY but I might be able to give you some advice. What is the configuration and what is the problem?

Ron

Tony_8

where

in WNY ?

I manage to keep a couple of water well based ComfortAire units going steady.
And, it seems there ought to be somebody who can determine the problem. Have you had a certified designer or installer look at your system ?
How is yours set up ?

radiant_4

It's a very long story. I have posted before on the Wall; most recently on 11-9-04 as ?air gap for staple up insulation. That thread tells alot of the set up. And Ron, you got in on that conversation. Since then contractor replumbed from 5 ton with desuperheater to hot water heater. Said original plumb was backwards(?) sending heated water from the hw to the 5 ton. Since the replumb, the insulation has melted off again. When the 5 ton runs, sounds like a train - very noisy and vibrates. Is it a possibility that the loop field is insufficient; we have photos of the loops in the ground. Each loop row lies right next to the next row, no space between the rows. One set of three rows is one foot lower in the ground. We have two pumps - 4 and 5 ton. When the AC ran in the summer by the 5 ton, it cooled the first floor great; not so great for the second floor. It is as if the system is good up to a point and then can't handle the extremes - AC and heat.

jeff_51

a guess

I spent fifteen years in Chautaqua county, have been gone for ten, but if my memory serves me right there was (is?) a well drilling company by the name of McCandles that used to do alot of geothermal heat pumps. They had spent several years in Canada installing them. Don't know if you are close to that area or not. Most companies have a list of certified dealers. Get online to the manufacturer and ask.???

hr

The design and layout

of a geo system is critical. The equipment needs to be sized carefully to the load and the ground loops need to be sized and installed correctly and carefully. Soil conditions, amount of heat sink, etc.

I'm not sure why a rep would not visit the site?? Have you called the manufacture directly?

I agree you need an experienced Geo guy that understands sizing, installation, and troubleshooting.

I'm not sure this is troubleshootable via the www.

Experienced troubleshooters are out there. Have you tried the heat pump associations? The may have members in your area.

hot rod

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radiant_4

I have personally talked with someone from ECONAR several times, someone from the Geothermal Heatpump Consortium and the International Ground Source Heat Pump Association. Along with the Water Energy Distributors of NH and two other geothermal engineers nowhere near us because there are none. AND our installer is IGSHP certified. We are just SOL. As you can tell, we are quite disappointed, to put it mildly, with the whole business. Sorry to vent on you hotrod.

Dave_22

WNY here

I am in WNY, didn't really think this was a good area for geothermal, being that is gets so cold here!!! That is unless you have a pretty small heatload IMHO.

Mark Eatherton1

I remember this one...

I asked one of my reps to drop by and comment. Guess he got busy and couldn't make it.

If the heat source is not compromised (sounds like it MAY be..) troubleshooting is relatively eay. If the source lines get EXTREMELY cold, it sounds as if your loop field is undersized. The insulation burning off the desuperheat line could be something as simple as improper insulation.

If you can someone in there with a couple of temperature probes and pressure probes, I'm sure we can help them trouble shoot the hydronic side. If the problem is on the refrigerant side, you'll need the assistance of a good refrigeration technician.

Show us the pictures of what you have.

ME

radiant_4

Mark,
Be glad to send pictures of the system. Do you have an e-mail address to send to - not quite sure how pictures go to this site.

tls_9

Western NY

western ny is a very large area, if you can narrow it down a little I might be able to come up with a name or two.

tom

Mark Eatherton1

The pictures are here...

ME

Mark Eatherton1

First off...

Mounding is a sketchy proposition at best. I don't believe it is currently approved by the IGSHPA. Too many uncontrollable variables like soil conductivity, soil moisture content, and so on and so forth. Secondly, what size of pipes are serving the loop field? WHat size of pumps are serving the loop field? How large is the loop field in general terms? How deep? What is the soil made up of?

More questions to come.

Guess this goes to show you that certification by any organization does NOT guarantee a solid job. Buyer beware...

ME

Craig R. Bergman_2

I'm confussed...

Is this two seperate Heat Pumps? One 4 ton and one 5 ton?
If so where is the rest of the loop field? We would never try to run 9 tons with 4 slinkey's. Also...What type of header brings the loop field into the house via the two copper lines, and what size are the copper lines?

We ALWAYS use one slinky per ton of heating or cooling required. With a 9 ton loop field we header them all together, buried outside, and bring a 2" supply and return
line into the house that both heat pumps run off. That way,
if just one of the units is running it has access to the entire loop field. (more efficient to run a 4 or 5 ton
unit off a 9 ton loop!!)

radiant_4

Hopefully attached, is a picture of the pumps for the loop fields - Grundfos. The contractor we are now working with repiped field leaders and replaced 1" copper with 1 1/4" copper supply and return. Supposedly the "hole" for the loopfield is 38' x 100' by 6 deep; 6300' of ground loop; 9 slinkys; 2 sizes , 4 and 5 ton dedicated; one pumps' slinkys a foot lower than the other. And the soil is clay.

radiant_4

Hopefully attached, is a picture of the pumps for the loop fields - Grundfos. The contractor we are now working with repiped field leaders and replaced 1" copper with 1 1/4" copper supply and return. Supposedly the "hole" for the loopfield is 38' x 100' by 6 deep; 6300' of ground loop; 9 slinkys; 2 sizes , 4 and 5 ton dedicated; one pumps' slinkys a foot lower than the other. And the soil is clay.

Craig R. Bergman_2

How is...

the loop field laid out? Is there more than the four slinkys shown in the photo? Vertical bore holes are our first choice for ground loops but when we do use slinkys, we ALWAYS use one slinky per ton of heating or cooling required.
I would also sugguest making a header inside, tie both supplies and both returns together. That way, if just one of the units is running it will have access to the entire loop field. A 4 or 5 ton unit running on a 9 ton loop field runs sooo sweet!

I was glad to read your contractor is replacing the 1" copper with 1 1/4". Sounds like they might know what is going on and can help you get your heat pump running right

Good luck with your system

Craig Bergman

radiant_4

Here is another picture of the loop field. It is questionable if this is the final layout because contractor had to take out some loops and have the hole dug wider (excavator not happy about that one). We paid excavator for a 38' wide hole and heating contractor told us he used nine slinkys; but only five apparent in this picture. If he had to widen the hole, I can't believe he laid out these five and THEN decided he needed more room. But if he used nine, they would fit side by side in a 38' wide hole; right? Yes, current contractor is trying to help us and has initiated some favorable changes. But still not running perfectly.

minnesota

geothermal heat pumps


Just curious if all of the heating for the upstairs is all in the joist. Reason why is water to water heat pumps cannot create temperatures above 120, you can use a heat pump to do floor warming but not heating unless it is in concrete or gypcrete. Hopefully there is forced air to back up.

Generally speaking 1 ton is equal to 3 GPM. So you will need 27 GPM on a 9 ton system, I was not sure if there was enough GPM. That was a good call about tying the two systems together, your efficiency will go up. It may get cold there but a ground source heat pump will perfom fine if designed correctly. I try to size my loop and heat pump capable of heating a home at 0 degrees. The rest is backup heat, which can either be a boiler or a electric strip heater.

radiant_4

Thanks for the reply. Supposedly there are 9 slinkys; not evident in the photo. You suggested putting a header inside to join the two fields for use by one heat pump. Any drawbacks to that? Of course need more pumps?. Thanks