Hot Water system - basics

Lori_3

Hello. I'm a homeowner with an old house, old radiators, original pipes and new boiler. The facts are I was quite able to handle the old boiler, gravity system. The new boiler was installed about two years ago and of course has bells and whistles out the wazoo and I feel like I'm in alien territory.

For general maintenance purposes and optimization I just want to make sure I have correct information. Nobody in my locality deals with boilers. They'd rather sell you a whole new forced air system. Not for me. I like my boiler and my radiators just fine and so does my house. The heating guy who installed it admitted to me he didn't have all that much knowledge and did some reading before installing mine. The old boiler tank finally rusted through so the new one was not just an upgrade, it was a necessity.

I am simply looking for the optimal settings for it. I've been bleeding air off the upstairs radiators and adding water over the last couple of days. The piping is original, the house is two stories and a basement. The boiler is in the basement and the expansion tank sits just above the boiler now and it is now a closed sytem with a circulating pump. My questions are these:

What is the optimal PSI range hot/cold and the optimal water temp range? With my thermostat set at 76 for comfort mode and 70 for economy mode I'm running at about 20 psi and 120* while it's fired up. I do find it kicking off and on quite often and wonder if I should make adjustments for longer, less frequent burns to improve efficiency. One caveat, my radiator valves are all frozen at full open and I'm not about to go forcing them to adjust between upstairs/downstairs demands. I'd rather experience some temp ranges upstairs to downstairs than to bust a radiator or valve trying to get them unstuck.

Any suggestions would be appreciated and I can provide further details if necessary.

Thanks
Lori

Weezbo

did you mention this is a gas boiler?

i think your having a gas boiler...120 is a shade on the low side to run an oil burner in a cast iron boiler. to low a temperature water tends to ruin them from the inside out. maybe if you have a chance to breeze through the manufacturers recommended installation guide you might see that your boiler likes to live at higher temperatures or what their reccommended parameters are. is it oil?

Lori_3

It is natural gas. I'm sorry I didn't include that.

Lori

Anthony_10

Sort of the same problem.

I also have a gas boiler. I've been racking my brain as to why my pressure does not stay at 12 to 15 psi when the system is off. When the system is running, I get about 22 psi and 180 to 190 degree water (according to the gauge ). All my radiators get hot, except the small bathroom one. I've bled this radiator several times, and it just dosen't get hot like the other ones do. I've added water to my expansion tank, because it sounded empty. People have told me that I have a leak in my system, but wouldn't I see water?? I changed my circulator pump, because it was ready to go. I knew this because of the way it sounded. That seemed to work on the radiators that weren't getting hot. But I am still confused to why my system can't hold the 12 to 15 psi when the system is off??

Lori_3

for anthony

I'm not particularly an expert, but do you have an open system? Is your expansion tank the old style whopper that sits at the top of the system or is it a closed system with a compression tank that sits just above the boiler? My reasoning tells me that if it is an open system with an old style expansion tank, one would see lower pressures when the system is off as compared to holding a certain pressure when employing a compression tank.

Maybe someone can confirm.

Anthony_10

I believe its a closed system

I believe it is a closed system. I have an expansion tank directly over my boiler in the basement.

Mark Hunt

Anthony

Do you know if there are any buried pipes in your system?

If you have a pressure reducing valve on the boiler water feed, try shutting the feed water off and see what happens. If the pressure goes to 0, you have a leak somwhere. This may take some time.

Mark H

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Mark Hunt

Lori


Assuming that you have two floors in your home, the pressure when the boiler is cold should be around 12psi. It will climb as the water temp increases, but it should settle out around as much as 20psi. Over that and we are approaching the point where the 30psi relief valve opens.

I am confused about the 120* water temp. Any chance you can post a pic of the boiler piping? It sounds like you do not have a by-pass which is required by ALL boiler manufacturers when installing a new, low mass boiler to an old, high volume system.

Mark H

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Lori_3

Plumbing pics

Hi. Thanks for responding. Here are some photos of the plumbing, I had made notations on them, but please recall that anywhere I say "return" I mean supply. I don't know what I was thinking when I was typing on the pictures other than being tired and frustrated. The places I denote the fresh water in line being plumbed into the return, I am actually pointing at top outlet of the pump on the output side of the boiler. I'm not stupid, just a little hurried sometimes. I believe the bypass is there if I am seeing things correctly, but maybe not. The photos may not be high enough to show what I am thinking is the bypass. This new boiler vs old plumbing was my concern.

http://www.lovemyoldhome.com/boilerplumbing

Weezbo

hello again Lori....

I wish i could organize pictures like that .*~/:) it looks totally coool. well i am thinking after looking and this is on first perusal that indeed you do not have any by pass on the boiler,it is a gas boiler,many of the right things are living on the boiler and piping.. now i go back and look for a purpose .,..........Hell ~o OH I'm Back well ,hmmm..that bypass is non existent in what id call the near boiler piping...what is going on is you have two supply and two returns on the supply and return pipes a bypass would tie the two together.it would go from the supply riser to the return riser ahead(on the boiler side) of the fields(the two pipes that tie into each supply and return risers).were that piece there youd like your boiler longer.its also wise to put a valve in the line ,with a temp gauge after the "T" that ties the by pass to the return...that way you can determine the temps comming back by turning the valve OFF and regulate the temp UP by opening it and determine basically what that temp is ...its called a dummy by pass as it has no real control over it other than seting it and forgeting it...sort to speak......................... if you hang around here for a while you will probably have a new idea or two on the boiler and its controls and maybe save enough $ by fixing the things to offset the one time cost of repair within very short order.

Lori_3

Add'l pics

OK,here are two more photos showing a little higher up where there appears to be a bypass with one of the return lines piped into the supply line, the other return line piped into the boiler, the same line that the pressure/temp guage is installed on.

http://www.lovemyoldhome.com/boilerplumbing/PC160025.JPG
http://www.lovemyoldhome.com/boilerplumbing/PC160024.JPG

This thing was installed by a heating contractor, though as I said before, he admitted he didn't have alot of experience with boilers. It also passed city inspection.

Could you please expound upon the 120* temp. that concerns you? Yes, the house is two story. I am home for lunch and the thermostat is in economy mode. I can't tell you when the last time it fired was, but the pipes are relatively cool to touch and I'm still sitting at 20 psi/50 ft. head
The temp is down to around 90*

Thanks so much
Lori

Mark Hunt

Thanks Lori


There is no by-pass on your system.

As I said, all boiler manufacturers want to see one when their boiler is attached to a system like you have.

Take a look through the installation manuals and it will show it.

You could start to see flue gas condensation and that can destroy the boiler. (It may even void your warranty)

There is a picture on that site that looks like there is a water stain on the flue piping. Was there a leak above it? If not, that could be a sign of improper draft which will also cause big problems.

Mark H

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Lori_3

from the manual and diagram

I'm sorry to be a pest, but when I call the installer's butt back over here I want to know what I'm talking about.

I can't find my owner manual to save my life. Found every manual for every tool I ever bought in my life, every vacuum cleaner, ever motherboard, but not this boiler. I found it online at Smith Boilers. Page 8 shows the bypass methods.
http://www.smithboiler.com/html/GB100IOM.pdf
Mine is gb100-7

But, as I read, it mentions "baseboard" heat, so maybe this manual wasn't taking into consideration a large volume system?

Here is a simple diagram of my piping.

http://www.lovemyoldhome.com/boilerplumbing/diagram.jpg

Can anyone tell me what modifications need to be made to make this correct? The circulator pumps away from the boiler to the supply. I've tried to show the relative sizes of the pipes and where they are reduced. The pipe I show coming off the "t" by the expansion tank does not intersect anything, it passes under. It appears to me that I do have supply mixing with return.

As for the water streaks on the flue pipe, it is from a little leaking at the joining of the pipes above when the boiler was first installed. In my photos you can see white pipe dope on the new connections when they modified the piping for the new boiler.

When I arrived home tonight, it was fired up as it had kicked into comfort mode. The water temp was at around 160, and the same for pressure at 20 psi/50 ft. head according to the guages.

May or may not be helpful, but some history, I've had to put two new thermocouples on this thing the last two years. Basically one every year. This year it got a whole new pilot assembly since the pot metal connector from the previous thermocouple busted off in the fitting on the bracket when it was being removed. I have once or twice seen condensation dripping onto the burners, but this has happened when the system had been shut down for a long enough period to get really cold and ceases once the system gets warmed up.

Lori

Lori_3

Sorry

Ok, guys, I apologize for all the trouble. I'm about to make myself look even more stupid than I already have. I see it very clearly now and I was right in the first place, that big line that is on the same line as the pump is in fact a return. The fresh water in is on the return, I also can clearly see I have no bypass, just straight return water dumping into the tank. Rather than guess or speculate I got hands on. I started at a pair of lines I could reach from the basement stairs, knowing they were both attached to the same radiator on the second floor, so obviously one was a supply, one was a return. I grabbed them both and followed them to their respective lines in and out of the boiler. One of course much hotter than the other. I'd not done this before because I am only 4'11" and cant really reach the ones overhead when I am standing in the basement.

Again, I am so very sorry for the trouble. It all makes sense to me now. I know I need to have the situation resolved.

Now, it is my understanding that it is better to have the pump on the outlet side of the tank as opposed to the return side of the boiler. Is this correct and exactly how big of a hissy fit should I throw when I call the installer?

Will I see efficiency benefits as well as the protection it provides to the boiler?

Again, I cannot express how sorry I am for taking up your valuable time in responding to scenarios where I wasn't even providing accurate information.

Lori

Weezbo

Ello *~/:)

well ,you have a system that maybe was economical to install. and with 120 ¡ãF returns probably seems a little bit more economical to operate so far. so depending on your anual energy consumption you probably saw a definite improvement over the previous years of energy consumption. there are ways to save a dollar as it were dialing the return temps down ,however most manufactures basically are going to state thier party line on something that rots out stove pipes or the internal parts of the boiler .or on a bad day cracks or pulls pieces apart as it goes through sort of a Shock to the poor thing as it is relatively new you might have saved enough dollars to make some changes to some stuff now. it will of course take some time ,tools and pieces..... there are various pieces you can add or rearrange.. some might suggest putting a pump after a mixer and another mixer comming back on the return to control temps,another might suggest cirulating water around and around on the house side with a seperate pump of its own with an injection loop and some variable speed controller with outdoor reset, maybe a 4 way modulating mixer there really is alot of ways to think of going. you are the owner so basically its up to you as to what might be the way to go...in other words,some stuff has initial costs associated with it that Seem a bit over the top on first blush, however they offer definite dents in the useage of energy over time.some very fine things to discuss with your friend would be the by pass 1/4 turn ball valve vs.set point controlled modulating zone valve . partial reset ,outdoor reset.maybe get him a different book to read. .........ok. New Plan.........Get him a couple books for Christmas:) tell him you were wondering if he might provide some insights on the system he installed for you

Lori_3

Thanks and update

Yes, I have seen a dramatic decrease in fuel consumption. The old boiler was eating up no less than $650 to $700 per month in gas during the heating season. This was cut nearly in half with the installation of the new boiler. I have made other progress with weatherization of the house - sealing up penetrations through the attic plane, caulking, weather-stripping, restoration of the exterior, etc.

At this point, I want to concentrate on getting the new boiler performing efficiently as possible and get the plumbing corrected.

This morning, I placed a call to Superior Boiler Works, a local company. They were always unable to help me in the past, due to only dealing with commercial boilers, but I requested to speak to someone in service to see if he could direct me to anyone who might be proficient with residential boilers and to my surprise, they have a technicion who does to residential work and who will come out and assess what needs to be done to correct any problems.

Thanks so much.
Lori

Anthony_10

Question for Mark H

Mark, I believe there are no buried pipes in my system. I need to ask another question. I am a mechanically inclined, but I do not deal to much with heaters and their equipment.
I have a 1/2" valve for my feed going into a 1" or 1 1/4" supply. I open this valve to add water to my system with the valve to the expansion tank closed. When my sytem is full, I would then open my valve to my expansion tank. Now are you saying that my supply valve should be open at all times ?? Or only open it when I need water to the system ??? If I would then lose pressure, that would mean 2 things : I have a leak or the expansion tank could be "water logged". Am I correct about this procedure ??
Also I would like to say I am grateful for all the help I have received on this site.

Mark Hunt

Anthony


Unless there is a pressure reducing valve on your system, the valve stays closed unless you need to add water.

A water logged expansion tank would cause the relief valve to blow (as long as it is not plugged). If the expansion tank has a hole in it, it would become water logged often. But you should see some sign of leaking.

How often are you adding water?

Any slab areas in your home where pipes could be buried?

You really shouldn't have to add water unless it's leaking out.

Mark H

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Anthony_10

For Mark

I've been adding a lot of water. That's why this is driving me nuts !!! The thing is I don't see one drop of water anywhere in the house. That's why I don't understand where the pressure is going ??!! I mean I should see some kind of water. Now I just followed some pipes to the radiators that've been giving me problems, and it does seem like they go through a concrete wall, then probably 90 up in the wall. I have not seen any water or hear anything unusual.

Bill Nye_2

Lori

Maybe you shouldn't call him back. May be some one else could do a little better.

Some thoughts, 1 You may need a larger expansion tank due to the large volume of water. 2 the low water cut off is not really directly in the stream of water. 3 the aquastat is not really in the direct stream of water either. 4 the relief valve should be piped with non-ferrous metal [not steel] 5 the thermocouple/pilot may have been affected by condensation due to the 120° water you mentioned. 6 a by pass of some type would be good. 7 the pump does work better pumping away [see Dan's book at Books and More] 8 a couple of valves and a little re-arrangement or "grooming" of the piping would have been nice. 9 I think it can be fixed. 10 Never trust the gauge, get a second opinion [anothet gauge] 11 The romex wire, plastic jacket, is not usually allowed near a boiler especially in that proximity to the burner. 12 the welded pipe? I guess he had to do what he had to do? 13 I guess I would have approached it a little differently.

Lori_3

Thank you for providing an ordered list of things to discuss when the next boiler guy comes. If you read further down, you know I finally found someone with experience in boilers to come investigate and indicate what needs to be corrected.

I'm beginning to wonder how badly I was taken on this job. Nobody in town would even consider replacing my old boiler. They all tried to sell me a forced heat system. We went a full winter with no heat except for space heaters after the old one died, so I was a little desperate when I finally found someone who agreed to do it. I also get the idea from a comment made earlier to the effect I got an "economic" solution, that my boiler is probably a bottom of the line name. I paid just under $5000.00 for this beautiful piece of work and I still get ribbed by a contractor friend who contends I should have just gone with forced air at half the cost. The extent to which this was a bungle is something I will try to recover from gracefully. For now what is important is to get her working as she should and ensure a long and useful service life. I am committed to learning all I can about this beast so I can recognize problems and maintain it properly. It's probably obvious, and I will freely admit, that I probably know just enough to be dangerous, so I am here to learn. I don't like to be helpless. Being helpless and desperate is what got me in this situation.

Thanks
Lori

jeff_51

to Antohony

Hope you dont't mind my butting in. You said when you filled your sysem, you closed the valve to you expansion tank. The only time you want to close the vavle to you expasion tank is when you are draining the expansion tank. Let me give you a suggestion. Close the valve to the expansion tank. Drain the expansion tank untill it is totally empty, not just till it stops draining water through the hose but totally empty. Close the drain and open the valve between the expansion tank and boiler. (I know you know this, I'm just being thourough.) Fill the system cold to about 25 psi and bleed the 1st floor. Go down and refill to about 25psi and go bleed the 2nd floor (if you have one). Do you by chance have an attic with a radiator hidden up there? Go back and refill to about 15psi, yo may have to drain a little water from the boiler to get down to 15psi.That shou7ld set you up. Just a note, if you have a third floor radiator, they often act as an expansion tank if the original one is too small which is why they never heat up. This sometimes also happens on a 2nd floor if the expansion tank is to small. I have seen this often. Even though the boiler and expansion tank has been in for years sometimes the tank was undersized from the beginning. Unless that expansion tank is drained and properly sized, your system just wont work right and you pressures are never right. Since you are not seeing any water that is where I would look

Lori_3

I don't think he did any welding. He cut back and tied into lines that were pre-existing. This directory shows the old boiler and plumbing and me dismantling as much as I could by myself. The pics to look at are from the top down to those dated August 2002. Those further down are not related. Not sure why I stuck them in that directory, but I'm not worrying about moving them right at the moment. Anyway, you can see that there were several welds on the original plumbing

http://www.lovemyoldhome.com/boiler

Lori

Bill Nye_2

Yep,

Yep, you're right, the damage was already done. Have to give credit where credit is due. I must apologize to your installer.

We call that welded joint a stab joint. You drill a hole and then stab the pipe in and weld it. It is not allowed in most applications. You can't determine how far it protrudes into the pipe. Too far and it could obstruct flow. But again, they hadda' do what they hadda' do.

Weezbo

ok *~/:)

maybe you would find time to post the outline of the proposal or the line changes he thinks need to occur...you know give us a chance to add our two cents early in the game plan....Good Luck Lori ...outdoor reset and a new control stadgey might save you even more energy per month ... Melly Christmas ...

Lori_3

Weezbo

Thank and a very Merry Christmas to you too. I really appreciate the time and thought everyone has put into helping me.

I will report back the results of the inspection.

Lori

Lori_3

Weezbo

Thanks and a very Merry Christmas to you too. I really appreciate the time and thought everyone has put into helping me.

I will report back the results of the inspection.

Lori

Anthony_10

To Jeff

Thanks for your help Jeff. I have your procedures down step by step. I 'll let you know how it goes.

Anthony_10

One more thing

Jeff, I may seem like a pain in the neck, but I need to ask one more thing. What you're basically saying is that I should be filling my system up while my expansion tank valve is open ?? Also, when you said fill the system cold , do you mean I should drain the system or just fill the system while the heat is not running??