Water Heater Pilot Light goes poof!

Mark Hunt

And this is how


friendships get started here at The Wall.

I hope that we can meet at a Wetstock or some other function some day.

I have had the honor of meeting MANY of the greatest folks in the world from this site. Contractors and more recently, homeowners.

I appreciate your input Rich. Not many understand depressurization, you obviously do. I look forward to reading more of your posts!

Cheers!!!!

Mark H

To Learn More About This Professional, Click Here to Visit Their Ad in "Find A Professional"

Bob Harper

upsizing? The REAL issue here

You speak about upsizing in the same breath with adding an appliance and the appliance being fan assisted. These are two separate issues. Sure, most of the time, adding a second appliance will require a larger liner but not always. You have to do your homeowork.

Likewise, when converting an old NAT to Fan assisted CatI, you must do your calculations. However, in this case, the liner size may actually drop. For instance, out of the IFGC Table 504.3(1), at 30 feet of 6 inch liner common venting can run 266K BTUs all NAT or 297 FAN/NAT or 361 FAN/FAN.

Does that guarantee performance? Certainly not! However, it is a reference point.

A couple of points here:

So far, we haven't discussed the amt. of vent rise off the WH, what piping layout, # of ells, and other restrictions which can have everything to do with successful venting or not. Then take into acct. how you tie it in. One of the single biggest problems I see with water heaters today is the installation of tall water heaters with almost no vent rise. If you must install a CatI WH, for God's sake, at least put in a shorty, come off the draft hood as high as you can before any ells, and make the run as straight to the chimney as possible (with your 1/4" per ft. slope). It steams me to no end to see WH's installed with the water pipes all nice and pretty lined up with the facing even though it means they have to stack ells to wrap around those pipes to find the chimney! PLEASE, figure out your vent connectors before sweating water pipes!

As for monkeying with pilots, go right ahead. I'll be damned if I'm going to modify a listed component. As a technical rep. for a major hearth mfr., I can assure you, if one of our appliances has an Oops! and I find you installed some bastardized pilot or even modified mine, I will do all I can to prove your modification was the proximate and legal cause of the Oops!

If an appliance is having a problem such as this one, put if off on the mfr! Why is everyone so quick to fall on hand grenades when they don't need to? Who's making you kill yourself over this installation? If you install an appliance in accordance with the mfrs. listing and it has a problem, put it back on him. When he gets tired of replacing units, he'll eventually do something about it. As long as you're covering his butt, he thinks he's building a great product. Therefore, by making field expedient modifications, you are perpetuating the problem.

Having said all that, I will point out we're talking about a Dead Man Walking. With the rise of new energy codes such as in Mn, atmospherically vented water heaters, furnaces, and eventually boilers will become dinosaurs. The longer we fix them, the longer this conversion will take. The bottom line is, these applianes are outmoded and unsafe in modern homes including those weatherized. Go to Joe Lstiburek's Building Science Corp site and you'll see these things on his Top 10 List of Dumb Things to Do in the North. BTW, power vented water heaters suck air out of the CAZ. Don't confuse them with sealed combustion dirext vents that have built in make up & combustion air. I've seen power vented water heater backdraft furnaces and boilers. Then add in the dryer and leaky return ducts and you begin to see maybe all that Prozac being prescribed might be treating low level CO poisoning, NOx and the like.

Ya'll have a great weekend,

John R. Hall

I don't know Jack...

...about the topic but I know enough about Jim and Mark to know that these guys know what they are talking about. If you met them and talked with them you'd understand their passion for training and education -- especially when it comes to combustion and the ultimate effect of poor combustion: CO. I attended part of a seminar put on by Jim (before he started talking too tekkie for me) and he knows how to hold an audience while educating them. My advice is for anyone in our trade to take one of his classes whether you "think" you need the education or not. It can, and does, save lives.

Brian_24

So if I understand Bob's post we are supposed to ignore a dangerous situation and wait for a manufacturer to fix a problem they may even deny that exist or wait for new equipment to come out. I have no problem at all modifying an appliance after I taking Jim's class. I don't claim to know it all but with the knowledge gained in Jim's class I now know how to use my tools to diagnose the problem and fix it. I was just on a call where a lady has been being poisoned by her boiler for four years, her former contracter said he saw no problem with it. Of course that was after they bypassed the spill switch. Just try to change the modifactions I am making to her system. I bet she will shoot anyone who tries too. JMHO.
Brian Garno

Brian_24

I also forgot to mentiom the repairs Jim references actually make it a much safer instalation by forcing the system to shot down if a problem exists. Yes this may be an inconvience to uor customer and they will have to call us to fix the problem, but at least they are alive and healthy and able to complain. FACT.
Brian

Unknown

Brian, how about some pictures

of those modifications. It is always a plus here on the wall when technicians show the work they are proud of we would love to see what you are doing to make equipment operate more efficiently and safely.

An after thought how about some before and after photos.

Mark Eatherton1

Well said Bob...

Stick around, I like your style:-)

ME

Bob Harper

please don't misunderstand me

I'm not busting on Jim Davis, one of the most highly respected guys in the country or Timmy, who is ditto on the credentials. I'm just saying don't enter into modifications lightly. As for ignoring problems, you aren't. You advise the homeowner of the problem in writing leaving a signed & dated copy with them advising of the problem with recommendations. If they choose to ignore your warnings, it was an educated decision on their part. If they enter into a contract with you to modify a listed appliance knowing it might void the warranty and listing but having been fully informed they elected to proceed with your modification AND you do good work, you're on pretty decent ground. You have to weigh the risks. If you totally rebuild a system and it works like a champ, since there is no damage, no liability attaches.

For negligence, you must have a duty to respond (install to a listing), an act or omission regarding that duty (violate the listed instructions), there is damage (CO poisoning), AND your act or omission is proven to be the proximate and legal cause of the damage, you're toast. If you cheated on let's say, the vent cap and there's a leak in the boiler. Can they blame the damages on you because you failed to install the listed termination on the B-vent? No. It wasn't the proximate and legal cause. Now, if that same cap could be proven to have caused backdrafting, you're toast.

There is also something called a Warranry of Mechantability and a Warranty of Fitness for A Particualr Purpose. Basically, what you sell ( part/ appliance, etc) has to be ok for the purpose the seller told the buyer it was suited for. Is a Cat IV heater ok to vent into an unlined 13x13 brick chimney? If unlined or no PVC through the stack, the answer is no. It all depends. Can you sell used equipment? If you make full disclosure, yes. If you don't disclose it and sell it as new, you could go to jail for fraud along with being sued under the Mechantability Warranty theory.

So, when you are out there toiling over whether or not to do something that may not comply 100% with a certain code, std, listing, etc, you have to weigh the good vs. a reasonable degree of risk or hazard. Doesn't have to be bullet proof in every scenario you can think of--just what's reasonable to expect.

I'm not a lawyer. I just work with them daily handling product liability for a major mfr. Please discuss this with your attorney esp. as it pertains to the laws in your state.

HTH,
Bob

Brian_24

My latest customer is out of town next week so I will be making repairs the week after. I will be taking before and after pictures and documenting this one. Will be glad to post them and let you guys kick the tires on it. Thanks for the interest.
Brian

Unknown

Thanks Brian

look forward to seeing them.

Mark Hunt

Hi Bob

I will repeat to YOU one more time so that YOU can understand what I have said.

I HAVE NEVER FOUND A CASE WHERE A FAN ASSISTED APPLIANCE THAT IS COMMON VENTED WITH AN ATMOSPHERIC APPLIANCE DID NOT SPILL INTO THE STRUCTURE. PERIOD. NEVER! NOT ONCE! EVER!

Verticle rise DOES NOT overcome the laws of physics! The GD chimney is as verticle as you can get, yet the flue gases still pour out of the draft hood!

As for manufacturers, they have a legal department on call 24/7 to make sure that there is no way that they are ever liable for anything. I was involved with a case where a utility shut off a gas service due to a reading of over 400ppm CO found in a home. The source was found to be the fan assisted furnace blowing flue gases through the atmospheric water heater. The manufacturer was called in and they said that it was due to "insufficient make-up air" and they washed their hands of the entire situation. The manufacturer rep NEVER even measured anything! How the heck does he know if he doesn't measure?!?! This was a wide open basement, NOT a confined space! When I tested it, we opened EVERY friggin' window in the place AND THE FURNACE STILL VENTED THROUGH THE WATER HEATER!!!!!! He never addressed why the furnace was producing such high levels of CO either. And before you get your panties in a bunch, this was a MAJOR manufacturer.

Now you claim to be a tech. rep for a hearth manufacturer?

Here's a case that should make you proud. A homeowner buys two new hearth products. A fireplace insert and a stand alone unit. The hearth company installs both units and taps into the existsing gas line (natural gas). A few weeks after the installation the customer calls with a problem. Seems that their water heater goes out when they are using the new hearth products. Customer realizes that this NEVER happened before the new hearth products were installed and calls the hearth company. The guy they send out checks the situation and "fixes" it. You know how he fixed it? He used the "balance valves"! He was referring to the gas cocks on the equipment!!! He throttled things down until he balanced the problem! Is that a fix that you as a "tech rep" would advise??????????

The fireplace insert pinned my CO meter at 2500ppm. The water heater was over 400ppm, and the furnace was just under 300ppm. BUT THE WATER HEATER DIDN"T GO OUT ANYMORE!!!

I'll make any adjustment to any piece of equipment that I can prove SAFE, 100% of the time. I have seen too many instances where the manufacturer had NO idea on what the problem was. BTW, will you be available at 2:00am? You know, so if I have a problem with YOUR appliance I can call you like the customer can call me? Thought not.

YOU won't hear about what I do because I will have SOLVED the problem. I look for the most common methods first, as ANY trained, experianced tech would. But life ain't a book pal, and things change from address to address. I don't care what you "think", I care only about what I can prove. And if I deem it necessary to make an adjustment that YOU don't understand, than too bad for you. Sue me. I'll see you in court and when I am done with you, you'll wish you never had. Funny thing about test instruments, they have NO agenda.

So back to this water heater problem. Tell me how many of these you have tested. Tell me what background you have with fan assisted appliances when commonly vented with atmospheric. Quoting the codes you know doesn't count. Tell me how many YOU have ACTUALLY serviced, installed, and tested. I'll bet my last dollar that I am right about this case. You in?

I must admit, you are a most vocal advocate of the "way we always done it". IMO, your entire knowledge base is "hand-me-down" information based not on evidence, but on industry accepted falsehoods.

I'm in homes every day Bob. How many do you enter? I see situations NO manufacturer could EVER dream of. How often do you get out od the office? I've seen manufacturers walk away and leave the installer high and dry. Have you ever told a customer that the problem was YOURS?!?!?!

Nice long post Bob, and on the surface it's almost believable. But you do not have a clue.

Again, I have tested hundreds. How many have you tested?







Mark H

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Mark Hunt

And you are wrong again


Doesn't matter if I tell a customer that their equipment is unsafe. If I leave and do nothing to remediate the unsafe condition, I am liable.

If someone gets hurt or dies, I guarantee that the prosecutor and the jury will find the "expert" at fault. Name me one case where a manufacturer ever provided for the defense of a contractor that did it "correctly".

Or are all contractors that get sued wrong?
Mark H

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Bob Harper

flame bait

Mark, I want to that you for that personalized attack on me. I think it best the discussion about appliance modifications, spillage, common venting, etc. be moved to a new thread. We are way off the original post here.

I just got in after a 12 hr. relining of a boiler and water heater common vented into a fireplace that was 100% blocked, not to mention the 5 foot horizontal offset to the 8x13 chimney for a combined 145K BTUs. I'll address Mark's comments tomorrow. In the meantime, I think you need to reflect on the purpose of this forum-- to share information and exchange ideas for the common good-- not to visciously attack people who don't agree with you.

We're all on the same team here, dude! Chill and please quit shouting. Have a good night,

Jim Davis

Bob

Your position is well understood by me but not so sometimes by my students. Liability is an issue which is ours whether we like it or not. Having been involved in dozens of court cases I have found that the contractor is liable all the time regardless of what the manufacturer says or the codes. The first and most important thing that I try to accomplish is to teach people that a problem exists and how to detect it. They are taught many methods of fixing those problems that have been proven effective for 26 years without a failure. Some choose not to make the corrections while others truly accept this as there responsibility to their customer. Years ago I was hired by a Gas Log Manufacturer to diagnose why they couldn't keep their Logs lit after 5-10 minutes of operation. This required repositioning of the pilot assembly, resizing the orifice, and correcting an assembly problem. After informing theire engineers of what I discovered they ask me to train their contractors on the necessary repairs. The other option was was to remove thousands of them that had been installed. But the first thing that I addressed was if they stayed operating would they operate safe. I have been responsible for the design or redesign of other devices such as water heaters, deep fat fryers, pizza ovens, kilns, furnaces etc. Even had to modify a 500,000 BTU burner in a High School after the installing contractor refused to come back and fix it and the manufacturer said it wasn't their problem. The problem was that there was quite an explosion everytime it came on which cause a flame failure. With the exception of the burner the other devices I was working with the manufacturers on new equipment. The venting of induced draft furnaces and natural draft water heaters is a real nightmare and safety issue. Because it is accepted I cannot prevent it, but I will surely instruct my students on the methods necessary to make this installation. None of these repairs are ever done without the permission of the customer who owns the equipment and has hired their contractor to fix it. Because this type of work takes the highest skilled, trained and equiped technician I do not post this information in its entirety on the internet. Until one hears the whole story I guess they will never be given the solution.. As an instructor I feel I have the responsibilty to disclose every piece of information I have encountered and applied for the past 26 years.. Initially it offends many if all they know is heresay, but not one person has walked out of my class without their head spinning and crammed with knowledge and solutions to problems that had never been answered. We are on the same team and your comments are appreciated, but I cannot always control the passion of those who have been enlightened. Marks words are not as much for you as they are for those readings this post and not contributing at all.