What do you tell the hardwood flooring guys?

Unknown

about how radiant floors "destroy hardwood floors." Even the most Expensive Flooring distributor from NY thinks "I'm crazy."

I linked him into the RPA's flooring guide and he said he "doesn't have time for that." HUH??? HE then said: "raidiant floors don't work on hardwood."

I've got a 1'500 Sq.Ft suspended slab 18" O/C sleepers and my tubing is 9"O/C with concrete in between. It's in there. The thermostat is a Tekmar 911 with a sleeved floor stat. (by the book) Room is somewhat southern exposure (lots of windows) and I'm much more concerned with overheating due to solar gain than from my radiant system. yet I know I will be to blame should the flooring do anything other than look good.

It's expensive flooring. Any advise?

Thanks in advance.

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J.C.A._3

I tell em'

> about how radiant floors "destroy hardwood

> floors." Even the most expensive flooring

> distributor from NY thinks "I'm crazy."

>

> I

> linked him into the RPA's flooring guide and he

> said he "doesn't have time for that." HUH??? HE

> Said: "raidiant floors don't work on

> hardwood."

>

> I've got a 1'500 Sq.Ft suspended

> slab 18" O/C sleepers and my tubing is 9"O/C with

> concrete in between. It's in there. The

> thermostat is a Tekmar 911 with a sleeved floor

> stat. (by the book) Room is somewhat southern

> exposure (lots of windows) and I'm much more

> concerned with overheating due to solar gain than

> from my radiant system. yet I know I will be to

> blame should the flooring do anything other than

> look good.

>

> It's expensive flooring. Any

> advise?

>

> Thanks in advance.

>

> _A

> HREF="http://www.heatinghelp.com/getListed.cfm?id=

> 296&Step=30"_To Learn More About This

> Professional, Click Here to Visit Their Ad in

> "Find A Professional"_/A_

J.C.A._3

I tell em'

> about how radiant floors "destroy hardwood

> floors." Even the most expensive flooring

> distributor from NY thinks "I'm crazy."

>

> I

> linked him into the RPA's flooring guide and he

> said he "doesn't have time for that." HUH??? HE

> Said: "raidiant floors don't work on

> hardwood."

>

> I've got a 1'500 Sq.Ft suspended

> slab 18" O/C sleepers and my tubing is 9"O/C with

> concrete in between. It's in there. The

> thermostat is a Tekmar 911 with a sleeved floor

> stat. (by the book) Room is somewhat southern

> exposure (lots of windows) and I'm much more

> concerned with overheating due to solar gain than

> from my radiant system. yet I know I will be to

> blame should the flooring do anything other than

> look good.

>

> It's expensive flooring. Any

> advise?

>

> Thanks in advance.

>

> _A

> HREF="http://www.heatinghelp.com/getListed.cfm?id=

> 296&Step=30"_To Learn More About This

> Professional, Click Here to Visit Their Ad in

> "Find A Professional"_/A_

J.C.A._3

I tell em'

> about how radiant floors "destroy hardwood

> floors." Even the most expensive flooring

> distributor from NY thinks "I'm crazy."

>

> I

> linked him into the RPA's flooring guide and he

> said he "doesn't have time for that." HUH??? HE

> Said: "raidiant floors don't work on

> hardwood."

>

> I've got a 1'500 Sq.Ft suspended

> slab 18" O/C sleepers and my tubing is 9"O/C with

> concrete in between. It's in there. The

> thermostat is a Tekmar 911 with a sleeved floor

> stat. (by the book) Room is somewhat southern

> exposure (lots of windows) and I'm much more

> concerned with overheating due to solar gain than

> from my radiant system. yet I know I will be to

> blame should the flooring do anything other than

> look good.

>

> It's expensive flooring. Any

> advise?

>

> Thanks in advance.

>

> _A

> HREF="http://www.heatinghelp.com/getListed.cfm?id=

> 296&Step=30"_To Learn More About This

> Professional, Click Here to Visit Their Ad in

> "Find A Professional"_/A_

J.C.A._3

I tell em'

You put a hole in it....you own it. Why should you have to explain anything else to them? Chris

GMcD

Radiant floors problems

The trouble is that there are a ton of people out there selling radiant floors without paying attention to the whole building design. They might know radiant floors but they sure don't know how to design a "system". A radiant floor is just one part of a "Whole House System". Bad envelope = high heat loss = excessive temperatures required for radiant floor heat output. Now add the inefficency of staple up to the low budget approach, and voila, hot floors that toast hardwood.

All you folks selling radiant floor heating need to become better educated at how it works as part of a whole house system. Granted a lot of the Wallies already know this, but please practice the whole building approach and treat the House as a System, with the heating and ventilation as one part of an inter-related system.

Unknown

Chris, Nail's not the problem here.

As a heating contractor we allways have to explain.

I'm in the position that the homeowner talks to the flooring company. They say this. "radiant floors don't work on hardwood". They say "they won't warranty their product over a radiant floor." Flooring company then says, out of the blue that they want to put down a layer of plywood on-top of the sleepers. This they say "this will prevent expantion problems."



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ScottMP

Gary

Whats a 911 Tekmar ? I am familar with a 511.

So they want to put down a layer of plywood on the sleepers and then put down the hardwood ? I really don't see a problem here. A little more wood to drive thru but not alot. Think how much we go thru with a plated system. Some of our climate panel jobs get another layer put on and work fine.

Ask the hardwood floor people how hot the floor gets with the sun beating down on it ? They are concerned about movement. All floors will move alittle, with or without radiant. I would be most concerned with the concrete curing long enough, there's alot of moisture there. Cure the floor, and then bring the floor temp up slowly.

I've got plenty of hardwood floor radiant and somehow I am still in business

We have one job that is wide board soft pine. I told the customer up front " You will have gaps and movement ". No complaints.

Scott

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Darin Cook_3

Keep fighting

If the area overheats or underheats you will be called on it. You will have to prove it is not the heating systems fault. No one ever calls the insulation guy at 2:00 in the morning to tell him his insulation job sucks or the builder who did not properly seal the house up. Keep yourself involved in the whole building cycle. This will give you some CYA. Oh by the way, it is very hard to believe that someone would think you are "crazy".







Darin

hr

Are there provisions

to monitor and maintain humidity levels. If not the system will be at the mercy of the conditions the build presents.

Yes, radiant CAN stress hardwood IF it is driven at too high of temperatures. Properly designed and controlled systems will not allow this to happen, as you know.

If you, or the HVAC contractor has not addressed the potential solar gain, wide swings in humidity, etc. Then as Geoff mentioned you have only done 1/2 of your job.

Check out Geoff article in PM engineer, very well done.

http://www.pmengineer.com/CDA/ArticleInformation/features/BNP__Features__Item/0,2732,135227,00.html

This needs to be addressed with the builder and owner on the FRONT end of the job, in writting and signed, to avoid the pitfall it sounds like you are headed for.

I've got a job running with 14" wide pine floors. Yes it gaps and tightens over the course of the heating season, but the HO completely understood this possibility and took all the steps to minimize the movement with IAQ equipment, and lives with the limited gapping.

All wood moves! Accept this with or without radiant, or reccomend another floor covering. OR pas on the job

Go to, and send your customer to, www.launstein.com. They do an excellent job of testing, rateing, and explaining the radiant/hardwood link. IMO

hot rod

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joel_19

scott

A 911 Tekmar works like the others but the motors in the back and it looks like a VW Beetle on steroids.....

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Unknown

Scott, My mistake.

It's the Tekmar 511. Awesome control. I need smaller fingers to attach all those wires though;-)

Why do you suppose the flooring guy feels the need for plywood on-top of the sleepers? I wouldn't want him nailing into the tubing. Plywood will hide where the pipes are.

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Unknown

I'm NOT crazy!

I'm misunderstood;-)

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George_10

Gary

With that statement every thing falls into place. Happy holidays.

Bart_2

Flooring moisture levels

Make sure the flooring contractor allows time for the hardwood to aclimate to the local and house climate. A few of my jobs the flooring contractors were pressed for early completion by the GC and the flooring product did not have enough time to aclimate. One job cupped so severely it needed to be re-sanded a couple of times. On the next project with that same GC, same flooring product and installer no problems after proper aclimation. It's easier for the flooring contractor to point a finger at the radiant installer than at himself.....

Constantin

I second that call...

I have seen it written in several places that wood flooring should be allowed to dry on site (i.e. in warm conditions) for at least a couple of days. Before installation, the water content should be verified to ensure that the boards fall into the right range.

Karim

radiant floor with hardwood

Gary is talented - but crazy... that's why we chose him for our radiant design. The question is hardwood overlay. Gary has been very clear on this, no problem. The floor person wanted to lay down plywood subfloor between concrete/radiant and wood - not really to minimize potential movement but to make it less likely that wood is wasted when placing (given space of sleepers at present)... it was assumed that any movement might be limited as well in the process. the question to Gary was along the lines of 'will this subfloor get in the way of efficient heating'. Gary's answer was to not worry about it if the concern was for movement purposes. As for making it less likely to waste wood flooring - we have decided to leave out the subfloor.

In any of these decisions it is best to get all involved from heating to flooring to carpenters, etc to give there input. Each persons work, in my opinion, affects and reflects the others.

Gary, again in my opinion, is the right man for the job - and has been most honest and thorough in his research and knowledge.

Mike T., Swampeast MO

Look to the Past

"Hardwood" floors were the ONLY wood floors for a centuries.

The proper proportions (thickness to width) and installation methods were learned LONG ago.

For a number of recent decades, "hardwood" floors were considered hopelessly old-fashioned. After all, given enough time, they ALWAYS move, they ALWAYS gap and they ALWAYS make some noise. They're also hard and loud.

BUT, given good wood, milling and installation, they're exceptionally long-lasting. ALWAYS a balance between good and bad.

The worm has turned and "hardwood" is again in fashion. But guess what? The problems are STILL there and considering that the wood available today is significantly lower in quality than pre-WW II, those problems are only exacerbated by generally inferior product.

A properly controlled underfloor heating system is NOT going to harm a "hardwood" floor of proper milling and installation. I just suspect that the normal problems are going to occur a bit more rapidly than in the days of yore due to the generally lower quality of the wood.

Grumpy_2

Installation spec for wood flooring?

Maybe we, (collectively) as a group of radiant contractors and installers, should put our heads together and come up with a set of installation specifications that must be followed by the wood flooring installers. It could be incorporated into our basic contracts with our prime customer, and a separate copy of the specification sheet would need to be accepted and signed by the flooring contractor. Your thoughts on this?

Mark Eatherton1

Tekmar 911...

is the one you install in an emergency when nothing else will work. It is auto programmed to call the last technician that worked on the system, because after all, it's HIS fault...


ME

Art Pieterman_2

Hardwood Flooring & Radiant

Gary:

As a factory rep for HeatLink, I have to deal with this question all the time. First, I carry pamphlets with me from the National Hardwood Council or send them to their website www.hardwoodcouncil.com and type in radiant in the search. Or you can go to: http://www.hardwoodcouncil.com/display_article.asp?id=261
which is the article regarding radiant FROM THE HARDWOOD PEOPLE THEMSELVES. At the bottom of the article, there is a link to how to install hardwood over radiant.

The big thing of course is the top surface temperature. They require that the top surface temperature be no higher than 92F. Well, if you are designing radiant properly, you will know that normally you should not exceed 85F, top surface temperature, anyway. Which puts us 7F below their maximum.

No, the problem with cracking, movement etc. of hardwood over radiant is not our fault, in a properly designed and installed system. It is actually the flooring contractor's. They need to climatize their hardwood to OUR HEATING SYSTEM. They cannot do this at their warehouse. The most common reply I hear from a flooring contractor when I tell them this is "Oh our hardwood is already climatized at our warehouse which we always hold at 70F and 37% relative humidity" La dee da. Their hardwood needs to be climatized to the radiant system. To the point that if you need 330 sq. ft. hardwood in the dining room, they need to stack 330 sq. ft. of hardwood in the dining room. And if they need 424 sq. ft. in the living room, they need to stack 424 sq. ft. in the living room. You get the picture.

The example I always use with my customers is a complete radiant house with gypcrete overpour w/sleepers. They installed 6" wide pine boards, aclimatized the wood like they should, and we installed an injection indoor/outdoor system to control the radiant water temps., and we ended up with only one crack in a 3,000 sq.ft. house. And I pointed it out to the homeowner because he didn't even know it was there.(his wife knew though).

So, send the nay sayers to the hardwood council's website where they can read all about it from their own peers. I hope this helps, and if you have anymore questions, please feel free to contact me.

Art Pieterman_2

Hardwood Council.com

Like I mentioned just above this post, there already is a set of spec's for infloor and radiant. And the crazy thing is that it comes from the hardwood industry themselves. Go to www.hardwoodcouncil.com and type radiant in the search tab. Check it out, its pretty darn interesting. Now, they try to promote an underlay or "firring strip" over the gypcrete to CYA, but it is not necessary, as most of us already know.

tim smith

radiant and hardwood

I have one for you, I was in discussion with artichoke through out the process. Finally knew what the finished floor was, oal 1/4 sawn. Sounds good. Room, very high heat loss per sq ft. But will make it. Final outcome, they put a 2" thick wool hairy rug over 80% of the floor and wondered why the floor was rising as it was. Also why it was cold in the room Under carpet temps were 110 degrees appx. Hmmmmmmmmmm I wonder. Guess who's fault. If you all think I am wrong I will take it, as i respect ya all opinion. Tim.

ScottMP

I always

wanted a 911 but my supplier is always out.

Scott

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