Magnetic water treatment?

Ken_8

two of our biggest wholesalers sent in the past week!

What do you guys think?


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Ken_8

Here's what I wrote to the rep...

I have followed the debate about electro-magnetic water softening for years and was under the impression that this technology does not work.

Could you cite any scientific research that may suggest this is not the case?

I would be most interested in the product if it actually works.

Ken Secor, CEO
Palmer Heating, LLC


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Ken_8

Here's what they wrote back

Dear Ken,

Hydroflow products has never claimed to softened the water in any way.
Our unique patented technology will prevent and remove lime scale.
Our technology is very successful in Europe and in the far east for the past 10 years.
We started selling in the us market about a year ago.
The difficulties we are facing are due to bad experience with other products in the past that promised to soften the water and failed...
However our confidence in our technology has helped us to penetrate to the us market.
Attached a water conditioners test that explains the differences between the technologies.
The only way to know whether our technology works is by choosing an application where you have a lime scale problem, install the unit and see for yourself!
Attached some testimonials we recently received.
Please let me know if you need more information or literature.


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Ron Schroeder_2

Is that electric or non-electric?

I don't know if they actually work but the non-electric ones are incredibly expensive for a couple of rare-earth magnets. BTW, I think that they MIGHT reduce lime build-up.

Ron

Ken_8

I suspect it is

line voltage and a pulsing magneto form.

There is no scientific evidence that this actually works, but there are a few (3) anectodal stories suggesting it does. You don't suppose they'd print the ones that suggest it doesn't now do you (;-o)

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Plumbob

> The only way to know whether our

> technology works is by choosing an application

> where you have a lime scale problem, install the

> unit and see for yourself! Attached some

> testimonials we recently received.


Classic signs of crooked selling include

(a) selected testimonials from people who wouldn't know a controlled, quantitative, unbiased measurement if it hit them in the face;

(b) the advice to "try it and see". Do individuals have the time and resources to do a controlled, quantitative, unbiased measurement? or will it be a case of "Yeah, yeah, seems to me to make a difference".

People believe all kinds of things that aren't true; the scientific literature contains a number of papers on "n-rays", which were "discovered" some decades ago and then a number of other scientists confirmed the "discovery" and did other experiments with them before people finally established that there is no such thing. Same with cold fusion.

Mike T., Swampeast MO

Possibly Ultrasonic?

Besides the common ultrasonic cleaners for jewelry, it's actually used to kill boilogicals in water (BIG, EXPENSIVE units) and I've heard it's being touted for preventing scale from forming (even cleaning existing scale) as well. No so sure if one little unit installed at one point on a relatively huge system can be fully effective though.

Did find one European solar company saying NO magnetic OR ultrasonic "softeners" with their systems--if water too hard, use traditional resin and salt...

Plumbob

> Besides the common ultrasonic cleaners for

> jewelry, it's actually used to kill boilogicals

> in water (BIG, EXPENSIVE units)


No, those big expensive units produce ULTRAVIOLET rays (which are invisible light, not inaudible sound). These do indeed kill bacteria in water. You can buy small units for use in single-family homes; they're widely used in some third-world countries.

Mike T., Swampeast MO

It's Ultrasonic

Ultrasonic Biological Water Treatment

Surprised me as well.

Ranger

Ken,I will say this...

...I installed the Clearwave varity at my brother and sister
in laws when thay built there house in Wall in 1999.(for no other reason other than to see if that thing actually worked and because well, I could).To this day I have not noted any green crust or lime deposits on any of there fixtures thus far.(mucho grande'lime and calcium in our water amongst
other things)so I can only surmise it must be doing something?
Ranger

Plumbob

Amazing. Sorry I doubted you. I find it hard to believe that this would work, though, and UV treatment is well-established and effective so one doesn't really need another method.

PJO_5

My $0.02

My experience with these (three different uses) is that they merely keep the minerals in suspension by changing the charge and/or electrical "makeup".

I am guessing here, but they probably take away some or all of the positive or negative charge, and thus they are less attracted to attaching themselves to something that has a slight opposite charge? That's how a lot of water treatment works (changing polarity). I assume they actually change the pipe's characteristics.

Same comments as the house in Wall, but probably a lesser degree...including my own.

Take care, PJO

Plumbob

I got a cancer protection blessing for $200 from a TV preacher, and to this day I have not had cancer (cancer is a mucho grande killer of Americans). So I can only surmise it must be doing something.

Constantin

Why wouldn't it?

Make the ultrasonic waves strong enough and you can turn kidney stones into powder - while they're inside the patient.

I don't see why couldn't use the same principle to disrupt the walls of bacteria, etc. sufficiently to make them burst and die. Not sure how well it would work on a virus in spore form, but using Tim Allen's "more power!" method of persuasion, you could pulverize them too, I imagine.

Ranger

Mike Muir sayz...

..send ME your money...:-)

Plumbob

> My experience with these (three different uses)

> is that they merely keep the minerals in

> suspension by changing the charge and/or

> electrical "makeup".

>

> I am guessing here, but

> they probably take away some or all of the

> positive or negative charge, and thus they are

> less attracted to attaching themselves to

> something that has a slight opposite charge?

> That's how a lot of water treatment works

> (changing polarity). I assume they actually

> change the pipe's characteristics.


Wow, you must have a PhD or sumpin. Changin the polarity of mineral ions! They give Nobel prizes for that kind of stuff!

.

> Make the ultrasonic waves strong enough and you

> can turn kidney stones into powder - while

> they're inside the patient.


Those waves are focussed on the known location of the kidney stone. But bacteria swim around and there are lots of them.

Al_19

Magnetic water treatment

Ken,

These type of conditioners have been the topic of ongoing debate in the water treatment industry for years. All other forms of treatment are measureable. But there's no way to measure the effect of this equipment. I guess that's why they always offer the testimonials.

With a water softener, you can measure the calcium in the raw water, and hopefully the lack of calcium in the treated water. The magnetic or electronic conditioners don't claim to remove the calcium from the water, just to cause it not to scale out so readily.

I've had homeowners with plugged hot water coils install the magnets after cleaning or replacing the coil, only to have the coil plug again. Then we install a softener and they have no other problem, even on jobs where a new coil plugged with only five or six months use.

I think that the original work with these was on large heating or processing systems where water was being circulated, not consumed. Then they put these on the feedwater lines and the circulating lines, constantly retreating the water. If they have any merit, that would seem to be it.

My doubts are:

If we assume that the technology works, then how long does it last? Does the effect wear off while water is standing idle in a hot water tank all day?

Shouldn't the unit have to be sized based on existing water conditions and flow rates? They seem to have a"one size fits all" approach. One unit I saw was two pieces containing the magnets, and they were just tied together around the water line with plastic ties. The same unit could be installed on any size water pipe, any flow rate, and any water conditions.

Even if it did prevent scaling inside pipes and tanks, if it doesn't remove the calcium, then there will still be calcium staining when the water is used at bathroom fixtures, in the dishwaher, etc. And there would still be the problem that calcium causes with preventig soap from sudsing.

Constantin

Actually, not really.

You're right, Lithotripsy requires some aiming... and much of it I imagine has to do more with how to penetrate fatty tissue around the kidneys than dealing with the actual kidney stone. The National Kidney Foundation has a nice primer on Lithotripsy. These days, you don't even have to sit in a bath anymore!

However, consider the huge variations of humans (in terms of shapes, sizes, medical conditions, etc.) compared to a controlled environment, such as a chamber through which water flows at a known rate, etc. Designing a biofilm and bacteria disruptor is thus a much simpler excercise. It's simply a matter of figuring out how much energy is required to kill the bacteria consistently.

After all, they can only swim so fast - much slower than the flow of water through this thing or the speed at which the ultrasonic waves propagate.

I had some time to review the unit that Mike T hyperlinked, it makes no claims re: viruses, so I presume that my theory re: the difficulty of disrupting a virus in spore form with this approach was correct.

Tony Conner_2

Magnetic Water Treatment?

You wrote: "I think that the original work with these was on large heating or processing systems where water was being circulated, not consumed. Then they put these on the feedwater lines and the circulating lines, constantly retreating the water. If they have any merit, that would seem to be it."

Think about this - closed loop systems by their very nature are not subject to scale deposits. The only way they can scale-up is if there's an on-going leak or bleed-off being replaced by fresh, hard water - which now means that they are NOT a closed loop. The root cause of scaling in closed-loop systems is mechanical, not chemical. Fix the leaks (the right thing to do for a whole bunch of reasons), and the fouling problem vanishes - whether or not a magnet or similar device is installed.

The two main questions I put to the folks who manufacture or sell these "water conditioning" devices are:

1/ Has any recognized body (CSA, ASME etc) approved these devices for their intended function? Not that I know of.

2/ Has any original equipment manufacturer of boilers, cooling towers, chillers, etc approved these devices for use on their equipment? Not that I know of.

Murph'_5

Wetheads.org is looking better all the time

To blast the man anonomously is one thing, to call yourself "**** galore" must mean you are not getting any. What are you about nine years old? wethead.org is looking better all the time. Too bad when Dan has to delete this, he will probaly delete an otherwise informative thread. Pat hits it!!

Murph'

Ron Schroeder_2

They might work on closed systems to keep the minerals in suspension but I am not going to pay $200 for a few magnets. I did get some rare earth magnets from here:

http://www.wondermagnets.com/cgi-bin/edatcat/WMSstore.pl?user_action=list&amp;category=Magnets_and_Magnetism;Permanent_Magnets;Neodymium

I got 10 3/8" x 3/8" magnets and put pairs of them across the copper supply. If it doesn't work, I'm out $8 but I can still use the magnets to hang my screwdriver when I am adjusting the burner.

Here is a report that shows there seens to be at least a little validity to magnetic water treatment:

http://clearwatermax.com/fta/index.htm

I am trying to find out if it is a real report.

Ron

Tony Conner_2

Unless...

...you've got some nasty pH related problem, or some other corrosion related issue, you'll pretty much never have a problem on a mechanically tight closed loop system. The little bit of hardness and dissolved oxygen coming in with the initial fill water won't lay down a measureable layer of scale, and the slight bit of oxygen pitting won't amount to the square root of anything. The problems arise in systems where there is a regular shot of fresh water showing up in the system, due to leaks, or a relief that keeps lifting. The solution to this problem, of course, is fix the leaks or the expansion tank issue, and make the system tight again. If magnets appear to work on mechanically correct and tight closed loop systems, it's because there ARE NO SCALE PROBLEMS ANYWAY. On a tight system, you could duct tape an old boot to the water line, and claim that aroma of this worn out old piece of footwear is "affecting the polarity of the metal ions" or some other such nonsense, and that this is the reason that this system is "deposit free".

I've got my old workboots sitting here in the shop, on standby in case I get drenched somewhere. Maybe I'll sell them for their water conditioning properties. I could let them go for $100 each, plus shipping. One boot for a residential sized system, and the pair for a larger commercial one. Duct tape not included

Constance Wrigley-Thomas - Canadian Hydronics

Caveat emptor

In addition to the Canadian Hydronics Council, I also manage the Canadian Water Quality Association. If I had a dime for every consumer call I have received regarding magetic, catalytic, electrostatic product etc out there, I would have a whole lot of dimes.

CWQA has dealt with the issue of these "non-traditional" products for years and has encouraged the manufacturers to show us the science. To date, we have yet to receive any verification that these products do in fact do what they say they do. There is no standard for these products so they aren't certified by CSA or NSF (except for maybe the electrical components).

We have information on our website at www.cwqa.com/html/consumer.html if you care to take a look.


Unfortunately, for the uninformed consumer, some purveyors of these products use pressure tactics to make the sale and then don't live up to their money-back guarantees.

Constance Wrigley-Thomas
Canadian Hydronics Council & Canadian Water Quality Association
www.ultimatecomfort.ca & www.cwqa.com

PJO_5

Thanks Murph...

Don't waste your precious time on this fool...if he can't even show himself by a real e-mail address then he is also a coward of sorts.

If he had half a brain he would realize that most water softening is done by ion exchange...

Take care, PJO