one or two valve radiator: danger of fire in OLD building

homeless in brooklyn

Hi,
(see attached photos)
I had an building fire in my apartment last week that has left my roommate and I homeless with 2 cats. We have friends to stay with but have found ourselves poorly prepared to deal with this...
We don't have renters' insurance (pls refrain from shaking your finger at me!) and my landlord claims that he has no building insurance either (so he is offering no compensation for damage etc)
The most senior fire fighter that responded to the call said his best guess for the cause was an overheated radiator (in a 100 yd old wood beamed buidling) that somehow ignited a severely dry environment. The floor where the fire started (one above mine) was and had been unoccupied (for months). It is clearly more damaged in the area directly under where the radiator was (there is a hole in the floor). The timbers in the floor are severely burned. The firefighter also remarked that when they doused the fire/radiator area it was abnormally hot--hotter than they expected... (can tell by steam?) I am getting the marshal's report tomorrow. In the meantime my landlord wants to begin reparations (he is the owner of restaurant that is currently closed below us), so I need to figure out what to do before my landlord gets rid of evidence...
For the record I have Always had heating problems (I lived over 3 yrs there). My roomie and I are the only tenants in a 3 fl building (ground fl is restaurant, basement has boilers, my floor and unoccupied floor above us where fire began); last year we were woken up in night with water coming down due to thermostat being set wrong (overheated?) by restaurant workers... the thermostat is in basement and controlled by random people...it has either been WAY HOT or the heat has been turned off (due to heat from ovens in restaurant)...

I need help in hearing what anyone thinks about possibility of me proving that my landlord has been negligent.

I have photos and am trying to contact a decent lawyer but am being turbo so I can get what I need to find for a possible court date...

also I think that all of the rads upstairs are single valve, but if 3 superhot single-valve radiators were within 12 feet of each other, could this do what happened to me? (see photos)
Can someone advise me? Please help me if you can. My roommate and I are both not so technical young women; I work 6 days a week and have no money to lean on for all of this excitement...
Your help is invaluable! Thank you for your time.

Mike T., Swampeast MO

Sorry For Your Misfortune

But it's rather doubtful that a steam radiator caused the fire by itself.

The lowest published kindling point for wood (temperature where it will begin to burn) I can find is about 375°. To be at that temperature, steam would have to be under about 185 pounds of pressure. Even if every safety was removed or defective the boiler or something else would have exploded LONG before. The kindling point for paper, clothing, etc. is even higher.

Not to say that the fire didn't start under the radiator, but to claim landlord's heating system reponsible would be an unreasonable stretch. Many, many steam systems out there in apartment buildings and I daresay that many are sorely lacking maintenance. Other things certainly go wrong, but a radiator getting hot enough to ignite a floor (no matter how dry the wood) just doesn't make sense.

Robert O'Connor_7

homeless..

Its clear by the photos that the radiator itself, did not cause the damage. Heat generated by steam radiation as Mike has clarified can not generate enough heat by itself to do such damage, but (its a VERY big butt.....he, he) could possibly aid an excellerant and or a chemical that flashes at elevated temperature. ...Robert O'Connor/NJ

Gordy

Hmm

That was not even a best guess.Mikes totally right on this. Even if a radiator could get that hot the fire would have started at a closer proximity to the radiator (under it) and on the top side of the floor. Was there any wiring in that joist bay? That fire started in the underside of the floor,maybe a hole in the floor caused the fire to intensify in the burned through portion of the floor,unless the fire department opened the floor up.

What is the pipe running closest to the hole? Conduit,Gas? I see the pipe fpr the radiator.

Constantin

Hmmmm....

I'm not an expert by any stretch of the imagination of all things fire. However, I share the doubt that a hot steam system by itself could start a fire. Otherwise, a lot more houses would be level by now.

I suspect something more pedestrian like an electrical circuit shorting out. For example, that could happen if an extension cord was allowed to rest over a radiator... most cords are rated for 90°C, at best, and steam radiators could reach that temperature pretty easily. Similarly, if a space that contained such wiring and a radiator or radiator pipes nearby reached that temp the same end result could be achieved.

Lastly, do not discount critters and the like. Rats have caused countless house fires by gnawing on wires and shorting them out eventually. All you need is an intermittent arc to really heat things up and cause a fire even without the circuit breaker tripping.

todd s

look in the \"Library\"

on the upper left hand side of the screen. There is a pdf under steam heating titled "can steam set wood on fire?"

jim lockard

not a fire dawg

But looks like that fire smoldered for a long time under the floor before it broke thru. I would guess most likly electrical from what I have seen in the past. Sorry for your lost. J.Lockard

Gordy

Proves Mikes point. The power of steam is truly amazing in the right conditions though. I got to witness first hand while working at an outage at a nuclear power station. Worked on the turbine deck building scaffold for the fitters. Saw 36"dia.X 4" thick wall stainless steel pipe elbows that looked like a tiger clawed a bar of soap, the pipe erosion was incredible. One pin hole and run your hand acrossed it at that kind of pressure it would cut your fingers off and cauterize the stubs in one pass.

lchmb

agree with Jim

Fire does not burn in a downward direction it burn's up. Your fire seem's to have started in your ceiling and then broke through in the area of the radiator. I would look for any electrical line's in the area.

Ex Maine Doug

My guess

is a leak in the 3rd floor rad. Over a period of time, the water rotted thru the floor and seeped inside the BX wiring. It then followed the cable, either along the BX or inside along the wires since the BX does not look like it was clamped but was laying on the dropped ceiling. The condensation then caused a hot spot at the nearest connection, but not hot enough to trip a breaker. Eventually the heat caused the fire to start.

Mark Woll_2

Fire began in ceiling,probably electric;look for arcing evidence

I agree with most of the other guys, your fire had nothing to do with the radiators. I've never seen steam or water ignite combustibles in a typical residence. I've done insurance fire/explosion subrogation work for over a decade and these are my humble opinions:

1. Fire probably electrical; probably ceiling recessed fixture too close to fuel load (i.e., joist), you had apparently a drop ceiling installed, so maybe there was a flourescent ballast failure. Try to photography and determine ALL wiring in origin location; account for all runs; see if there is any arcing damage on anything.

2. I would bet money that your landlord DID have insurance, but his insurance typically covers only HIS interest in the property which is PD (Property Damage) and possibly lost rent; business interruption. It would be extremely rare to see a landlord covering the personal Property (i.e. your "stuff"), unless the landlord was a relative.

3. Unless you are able to identify an insured cupable party who participated in some way in creating the risk of fire (i.e., a recent electrician's visit installing a recesssed fixture) which can be causally linked to the fire, you will never obtain a recovery.

4. Can you discount tresspassers and arson on the third floor? The photos suggest that the fire was inside the ceiling cavity which seems to discount an unknown third party.

5. Pull all building permits on the property and see who was there recently.

6. Find out the name of the landlord's insurance carrier and obtain a copy of their C&O (cause and origin) report if they are getting their own C&O expert separate from the fire marshall (which I doubt).

7. Examine your lease for any "waivers of subrogation" clauses therein.

8. If I were you, I would not expect to recover a nickle, unfortuantely.