CO Detectors something to consider

Unknown

are not readily available. This is a dilema that has to be addressed as we try to educate people about UL 2034 fallacies. Local authorities are willing to listen to my pleas for using a better detector. There question is how do we obtain them. If they are not available in hardware stores and big box stores then people will choose what is available.

To the best of my knowledge there are only two low level detectors made today. One is sold only to contractors, the other is not available to homeowners unless by direct contact with manufacturer.

What are your thoughts on this?

I want to contact a local newspaper writer to try to influence him to do a series. I would however like to be able to have an answer to this question.

The limited market availibility presents a real problem.

jerry scharf_2

Catch 22

Tim,

Until people realize there is a difference, they can't complain about the ones that don't work. Until they complain, there won't be a change to the UL specs, and there won't be low level units that keep people safe.

One idea is to get a local hardware store interested, write up a one page flyer about why this is a better unit, and see how that goes. It's a way for a smaller store to be different than the big box stores.

You can get the CO Experts unit on line at www.aeromedix.com and probably elsewhere. The person who runs the site is a good guy, so I like to send people his way.

jerry

Jim Davis_3

Low level detectors

Homeowners should not be able to buy a low level detector direct from anyone but a contractor that knows how to do a proper CO investigation. That is how even the UL listed alarms were said to be false. Contractors need a Low Level Alarm that is exclusively theirs to Market and only the NSI offers that protection. CO Experts first alarm level is 25ppm-NSI 15ppm. No other true low level alarms are on the market.

Unknown

The low level detectors are not really on the market.

Does CO EXPERTS or NSI have a national advertising campaign. I do not believe they do. How about getting them into trade magazines. I am willing to do a complete article on both for the HVAC Insider and would encourage both outfits to approach all the trade magazines for advertsing space so that the "Contractors" can get the message. We are not really reaching a target audience with this message. How about the NEWS running a full page ad they ran one on the Guardian System how about an ad for low level CO detectors. I know that Jim Davis, John Hall, Mark Hunt, Rudy Leatherman and many others are doing a great job and I applaud their efforts. We are not reaching a very large audience however.

I would venture that a presentation on hydronics or radiant would draw 10 times the crowd a CO presentation would draw.

I will say since Mark and others have saturated the "Wall" with CO information more posts and comments about CO have occured. We are doing a good job but we need to kick it up a notch.

Somehow the detectors have to get into the end customers area of accessibilty. Perhaps make them available to a large market with a requirement that to be activated they have to have a trained contractor install them. Just a thought as I think out loud.

Jim does NCI sell only to those who have attended their classes and are certified?

I can tell you also that a part of the problem is that many of the trade magazines have an exclusive group of writers who have a specific agenda and not many of them write about CO. I know Dave Yates did in "Contractor" I am not sure if others have however.

Boston Boiler_2

Detector saves four today.

CO detectors got some good publicity this morning on FOX news. "Four people taken to Massachusetts General and all expected to live thanks to a CO detector" A hot water heater vented from the basement somehow to the third floor only and poisoned four tenants in Dorchester, MA. They didn't say what type of fuel or what type of CO detector but they put emphacy on the importance of the detector. CO detectors should be getting more publicity and not only made more available but to be installed as simply as possible to encourage everyone to use them. Start talking about marketing them as a hands off to the public and to be sold and installed by contractors only and I think you will loose the attention of a lot of people. Just as smoke alarms range from ten dollar battery operated to more expensive hard wired DC back up systems,just to get a signal that CO is present is what counts.

BB

Glenn Harrison_2

Tim,

Check these out, see what you think. They are not as good as a CO experts, but they do have a relativly fast responding low level alarm. I was recently introduced to these by a customer who had one go off in low level alarm at 41 parts.

http://sencosensors.com/

Mark Hunt

Unfortunately


the readily available UL listed units give people a false sense of security. They think that the CO alarm offers protection for everyone and they do not.

I'd be willing to bet that the family you mentioned was being hit with CO long before that alarm went off. There just wasn't enough to set it off. According to UL-2034, an alarm is allowed to wait 4 hours before it sounds at 70ppm. The firemen put there masks on when the ppm hits 30. Why? If it is ok to sit in 70ppm for 4 hours, why worry about 30ppm?

And what does 70ppm do to an infant? Or a two year old? Or an unborn child? Or an elderly person, or a person with heart problems etc..........I could go on and on. What if the levels only reach 69ppm?

The battle (educating) here is being fought on many fronts. PHVAC contractors and appliance manufacturers, medical personnel, the general public, AND the manufacturers of the CO alarms. Now throw in a bunch of bureaucrats, and you have chaos and a good reason for CO being the #1 cause of accidental poisoning deaths in the United States. Number 1!!

Think about it. If we know how to build a better CO alarm, one that offers complete protection, why not just do it?

I'll tell you why. Because fire departments would be overwhelmed with CO calls. Chicago found out about this several years ago. A law was passed mandating CO alarms in homes after a family of 11 was killed by CO. One fire department had over 3000 CO calls in a month! Reason? The alarms were "too sensitive". So along comes UL-2034. EUREKA!!!! No more "nuisance" calls. Problem solved.

What was not addressed here was that the sensors were crap. They were so cross-sensitive that just about any household cleaning product would set them off. I don't blame the firemen for getting ticked off when they respond to CO call and it was just Moms' hair spray, or Dads' cologne.

Before I sell a customer a low level unit, I sit them down and go over exactly what they can expect and what they should do if low levels are detected. With the current level of ignorance regarding CO, what do you think a 911 dispatcher would say if a person calls to report 15ppm CO in their house? What would the local heating contractor say? Heck, most of the PHVAC contractors in my area don't even own testing equipment. Now what does that tell you? If the "experts" can't test for it, how they gonna' know what caused it and how to fix it?

There was a story I posted a while back where a DOCTOR had no problem with people being exposed to CO in excess of 600ppm for a short period of time. The guy is dead wrong, but he has a liscence to say wrong things.

I like what Jim Davis says, "Our customers are dying warm and clean". More important to keep them warm and clean than safe.

Timmie, I got your e-mail and I will dig up as many stories that I can. E-mail me your fax#.



Mark H

To Learn More About This Professional, Click Here to Visit Their Ad in "Find A Professional"

Gary Reecher

One of our local wholesalers at our recent CO Seminar looked at the brochures for the CO Expert and seemed very interested in them. Hopefully they'll purchase them for resale to the local contractors.

Boston Boiler_2

Mark

Without a doubt lower is a good thing but this one building in Dorchester, MA was a three decker with bars on the first floor windows. This unit was with no doubt a plug in or battery unit and they probably did sit in low level CO for 4 hours or so. They are recovering and the cheap alarm is the reason. Why not make top line dectectors, just be sure to keep something out there when the choice is a cheap unit or nothing at all.

BB

Steve_35

> enough to set it off. According to UL-2034, an

> alarm is allowed to wait 4 hours before it sounds

> at 70ppm. The firemen put there masks on when the


This may be a fine point but I think it's an important one. UL listed CO detectors aren't "allowed" to wait for hours at 70ppm before indicating a problem. They MUST NOT indicate a problem before 4 hours at 70ppm or at the other trigger points. My understanding, while admittedly not what it could be, is that they're not even supposed to show the level of CO on a digital display prior to that point.

Bob_41

Jim,

>> Homeowners should not be able to buy a low level detector direct from anyone but a contractor that knows how to do a proper CO investigation. <<

You didn't REALLY mean to say this did you? I've used the CO Experts model for years BOTH in my home and the plane(s) I fly. I have even more sensitive sensors for the compressed gas cylinders I use for SCUBA ... I don't think the problem is related to distribution, its education ... look at the articles, lots of incorrect information experts get "quoted" and relevant pieces snipped which give comsumers, regulators and even contractors false impressions. Homeowners not having access to an open distribution channel won't solve the problem ... people don't get their systems checked as it is .... the follow-on collorary will be that "HVAC professionals will be MANDATED (read regulated) to check systems for CO at prescribed intervals with new licensing, testing, certifications etal so instead of a $100 available device we'll have a $200 controlled distribution device (contractor mark-up of 100% ... after all you had to pick it up at the distributor, drive it to the residence, place a battery in it, etc) and a $100 or more "CO Investigation" service call for something that should be part of a standrad annual or semi-annual service.

I like the Aeromdeix site .... http://www.aeromedix.com/

Looke like the new COExperts 2004 model is a little more conservative in reporting ... my current group starts to display at 5ppm and alarm at 9ppm, the new ones on't get audible until 25ppm but begin to visually alert at 10ppm.

They're bargains. I've provided them for ALL my immediate family, in-laws, some neighbors (<wink>) and even "educated" my current HVAC service company tech about the differencec between store-bought UL listed CO detectors and these low level units.

Bob