just a thought

joe_14

i was watching the ISH North America show on HVAC TV. It was a great show,thou it got me to thinking(a scary thing)about our trade.I was watching tacos rmb presentation and wisbros boiler room in a box.dont get me wrong ,both of these products a great for our industry.during the presentation a comment was made that the demand for comfort is rising.people want radiant,snow melting and pool heating.but the level of skilled workers is declining,which is true.
this is what is driving the manufactures to produce these great products. but shouldnt we be spending the time to teach and educate the workers in our trade. sure all we have to do is follow the manufactures instructions and almost anyone can install some of these products.but what will happen ten years down the road.things will be made so easy to install that the unskilled worker of today will be the skilled worker of tomorrow.or what if something needs to be troubleshot,the lack of understanding the things we are looking at will make it difficult to fix. will we become a throw away society and replace instead of repair.
the area in which i work,there are many poeple in our trade that dont even know what a reset control is let alone work on it.so my point is. with so many bright minds in this forum like mad dog, hot rod,, glen stantton, dan the man hollahan. robert bean,paul polliets, and many others. why cant we use liscenings to help bring the skill level in our trade where it should be. by making the level of education needed to keep your liscense more demanding by teaching all the fun stuff in our trade such as primary/secondary piping, steam systems as dan would say teach us how to think like water or be steam, can we get down that pipe to that radiator.maybe the manufactures can clime on board and help.
dont get me wrong the products out there are great and we should be using them, but i think we should work even harder to bring the skills of the worker up to the same level as the products being made,if we dont what will it say for the future of our industry.

just my humble opinoin
thanks for taking the time to read. any and all opinoins welcomed
joeg.

RonPR

Everyone I n the industry is working on this problem but the wheels turn so slowly when so many are involved in canada we had our first code book for hydronics and it was pulled because it sas too strict ( new home builders dident like it ? ) Is what have been told about why it is now listed as best practices only , Hey but lets not give up OK

John White

training

This is a really good observation.
Most companies in the industry are providing some kind of training. To a large extent, in my experience, most training is product-specific to individual companies products.
Taco has developed a number of training programs, focused at all areas of the industry. We developed the mission of creating a strong Taco Brand recognition based on being The "Comfort" company.
There are residential programs, radiant programs, commercial programs, etc.
Very good observation. Makes me feel like we are heading in the right direction.
John White

Constantin

Yup, there are many issues...

...however, no manufacturer is going to be able to replace the skillset of a trained technician. It simply won't work unless you find an all-integrated solution for heating systems (like windowshakers on the AC side) that people can live with, that are economical, etc. In other words, that's a holy grail, at best.

More than anything, you have identified a need... and a reason that some contractors will do better in the future than others. Those contractors will be the kind that listen to their customers, educate their customers, and those that will continue their education to stay on top of things.

In other words, what'll drive success in the future is no different from what drives success today. Those that don't appreciate the value of education beyond OJT will, on average, be less efficient and more trouble-prone than the ones that do.

rb_6

State of Union ...

Great comments Joe,

Here’s one mans views of the whole shebang….

When I was in the design, distribution and fabrication business, our energy transfer stations division catered to small to medium sized district energy projects and we rarely if ever had any complaints from clients even though the systems were far more sophisticated than residential stand alone systems.

Each station had energy meters, magnetic or impeller types, analog or digital, with or without remote communications; differential pressure control valves – not the low cost spring variety but the diaphragm and positive/negative cap tube type; reset and setpoint controls for space heating, ventilation and domestic water and both electronic and thermostatic valves. Most had brazed plate heat exchangers. All had balancing valves. Each station was designed, fabricated, wired and completely commissioned to the engineering performance specification before it left our facilities. These were not custom units…they were standardized models and we luvvved them – they never came back and they never needed troubleshooting! I’m guessing Taco, Wirsbo and even those of you embarking on a similar trip are finding out the same thing.

It was our product distribution division that drove us bonkers because our individual control component sales eventually became on site assembled systems which ultimately led to trouble shooting calls dealing primarily with wiring, commissioning and operation….not piping assemblies. It literally drove us batty because what would happen is the heating wholesaler would sell the electrical components to the contractor and it would go to the job site where it was mounted on a wall or connect to a device - then when sparky showed up he was given the instructions on what needed to happen and then poof - poof….the smoke gets let out of the wires. Then the blame starts…. warranty claims…. mad customers…threats…lawsuits…increases in insurance premiums… none of it listed in Dale Carnegies book “How to Win Friends and Influence People.”

It was (is) a losing battle - over time, a demand for the techno systems has been created and continues to rise in proportion to housing starts - at the same time we have a shrinkage in skilled labor so the result is a gradual but continual dilution of qualified installers on the job sites – and the numbers don’t work in our industries favor – distribution, manufacturers, government, industry and insurance companies are duly concerned - and (AND) as mixed hybrid systems evolve it will get to be a real handful.

The preassembled stuff deals only with the “smoke on the water” - but the filling, purging, balancing, and commissioning of controls still has to be done by a qualified and certified technician….this is where the real challenge lays.

Like Paul Pollets says bubba butt cracks don’t come voluntarily to seminars. He might be able to pipe it but he can’t make it sing and dance and that’s why I and others have said over and over again – a plumber, pipe fitter or tinsmith is no more of a comfort contractor anymore than a cribber or framer is a cabinet maker…Mark Eatherton calls them Hydronicians, I call them Thermal Environmental Control Technicians or TECTs for short. Whatever we call the good guys we can’t just call em plumbers or pipe fitters anymore because that’s not what the customer’s calls to complain about unless the call is to say there is a leak - then and only then has she has called the right person.

When a consumer calls up to say she’s cold, hot, dry, clammy, out of hot water or concerned about the hissing, banging, clanking etc…in our personal experience she’s not typically passing judgment on the assembly of the system at that specific moment in time (unless its leaking), but she is telling us one or more things are not meeting her perception of satisfaction from a comfort, safety or efficiency perspective. Comfort is a physiological and psychological interpretation, safety requires knowledge of codes, standards and equipment operation, and efficiency requires knowledge of chemistry and physics.

The National Occupational Competency Testing Institute publishes the Job Ready Assessment List for an HVAC tradesperson, which includes; Electricity, Soldering, Brazing and Welding, Air Conditioning, Forced Air, Gas and Oil Units, Hydronic Systems, Refrigerant Recovery, Heat Pumps and Electric Heat, Pipe fitting, Humidity and Air Movement, Controls Installation and Service, General Safety, Related Math and Science, Sheet Metal and Ductwork, Employability Skills and Computer Literacy…an impressive list no doubt - but no where does it cover human physiology, psychology, nor does it cover codes and standards, or physics and chemistry (like Dan says in his blog - his sociology degree was good training for the heating business – amen to that.)

The safety taught is general on site workman’s comp stuff if I remember correctly (if I’m wrong give me a whack ) and the math and science knowledge disappears as soon as they become “pipe fitters or tinsmiths”.

I personally would never call the good guys I know on this site a plumber, pipe fitter or tinsmith…those words don’t describe their profession at all – not even close. In my own trade background, I have over 10,000 hours in carpentry experience but if I ever got the idea of building cabinets for our house my wife would divorce me. Call me a framer, cribber, whatever - but even I know when to stop at cabinetry – it may fall under the word carpenter but its not the same…and a master cabinet maker from the old country would permanently turn my fingers into wood plugs if ever he was called a framer. Hydronicians, or Thermal Environmental Control Technicians are the Cabinet Makers of our industry.

Anyways …back here in Canada, our industry association and institutes have worked so incredibly hard to develop and get the CSA B214 Installation Code for Hydronic Heating into the National Building Code – it made it into Section 6, Best Engineering Practices (yahoo!) only to have it rejected in Section 9, Wood Frame Construction on the premise that it was too restrictive…geesh. The builders don’t like the benchmark the industry is looking for, unqualified masses of bubbas won’t take the certification / seminars / courses, and inspectors don’t have the power to do anything about it.

I am the last person in the world to invite government legislation into business but when business can’t control the risks particularly health and safety then its time to bring in big brother.

Which brings me to my last breath and obnoxious opinion - the #1, numero uno reason “we are - where we are” is the fragmentation of our industry…every committee that I sit on says the same thing…different city, different country, different table and chairs – all saying the same things. But try getting all the players on both sides of the border to form a coalition – one voice – one message – critical mass as we say - requires people to drop their egos, risk their job security, possibly forego research dollars and for some it ultimately means becoming uncompetitive and for others unable to meet the standards… all such pleasant thoughts.

The BRIGHT LIGHT – a shining star as it were – a ray of optimism and hope- is currently in a vortex being spun about in Canada by AHAC/CIPH/CHC/HRAI/RHWHA/ and MCA members - around the CSA B214 Code and the certification course being developed and offered by N.A.I.T. and B.C.I.T. - Toss in the Ontario governments newest requirements for inspectors and designers to pass a series of legislated professional exams ( Dan Peel – help us out on the details if you can). ... and what we’re left with is a “soufflé of societies of sorts” - I don’t know where the carnage will eventually land but with a miracle of miracles - hopefully they will pull together to form the elusive coalition needed to drive provincial and federal governments to legislate certification and enforcement by inspection branches. They in the soufflé - are all great people who care about the industry so I’m rooting for em all and doing what I can to provide some social lubricant! In the U.S…it’s the same issues, just – well – bigger…and with some more sand in the ointment - but someone once said - all that really matters is whether you care enough to start from where you are.

Anyhow…send me the bill for taking up your time reading this expose of one mans 40 grit sandpaper opinions and observations….

Cheers,

rb

Illustration is how I see the B214 Code as a central cell influncing the industry.

Mike T., Swampeast MO

Was Time Well Spent!

nm

DanHolohan

Standing

ovation!

J.C.A._3

Mr. B ,

I just received my Town census info sheet and by golly, I'm listing myself as a Thermal Environmental Control Technician. I used to put down "heat tech.", but I think TECT may raise a few eyebrows. Thanks for the new job!

I cannot argue with your position on all of the different trades "just getting along".Here in the wonderful state of Ma., we have far more restrictive codes than most of the country. Heck, we even have our own oil burner codes that are far and away above most , and they are going to be shifting to national codes someday....(THEY tell me, but who are they ?). I'll continue to do my work to the codes I have been taught and think anyone who lowers their standards to meet "minimums", will be just another victim to the right way.

TRAINING, TRAINING, TRAINING.... The only way to keep one step ahead of your competition ! Those that do are well represented here. Those that don't, see the comment about victims above.

Thanks R.B. How Bout' them Canucks? Chris

Dave Yates (PAH)

Cheers

from the sideline! Bravo!

I found myself soapboxing last night while teaching a classroom of young plumbing apprentices. They need to know that they are professionals and deserving of the respect that goes with that idea; To constantly strive for excellence; to never stop yearning for learning; To give back to their community; To compete as friends - not enemies; To always, always, always question and examine what you are told; To test that information for its truth - ot lack thereof and that learning = earning.

Was it just 34 years ago I sat in their seat? They thirst for knowledge & yet, have no where to turn for really meaty classes that inspire and invigorate.

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Constantin

Interesting Points!

I see national standards as a two-sided sword. Here are some points I consider whenever I hear "standards".

• Good standards (and more importantly, good inspectors!) may finally lead to some better installs by making it harder for the fly-by-night operators to get away with their butchery. Perhaps this is the main reason that builders opposed B214.
• National standards on construction and installation, may incentivize more companies to certify their equipment for use in the USA. For example, a VP at Viessmann told me that certifying their equipment to 20+ standards is a big reason we don't see more innovative EU equipment over here.
• Well-written standards can be oxymoron. Many standards would benefit from more pictures and less verbiage, since a picture can be worth a thousand words. Nowadays, there is no reason not to back up words with images.
• Requiring minimum certification to get into the business ought to be a good thing. Yes, it will hold back some enterprising folks... but it will also reduce the number of hacks entering the business. Just being able to print a business card on a inkjet printer is not qualification enough to install a $$$ piece of heating equipment.
• On the other hand, certification should not be too onerous either. Otherwise, you simply create a local oligopoly of "certified" installers that can then charge any price they want.
• ...and I could go on.

The biggest issue I see is where the dollars are being spent on Capitol hill. There isn't a large lobbying capacity standing up for certified heating technicians, however, there are a lot of builders and equipment manufacturers who work hard at preserving the status quo. I mean, when was the last time that the Congress/Senate passed a law that was not written by a lobbyist, somewhere?

J.C.A._3

Constantin,

Living in the peoples republic of Cambridge should be the HIGHEST qualification for your statement. Your questions about sidewall venting your own boiler were unbelievable to most who post here. We live in a different country/state than most folks will ever realize.

#1- We've been in business as a state far longer than most.

#2 The METAL lobby has a far more reaching impact on our State reps and legislators than can be imagined.(Hence...your Roth oil tank.There are MANY thousands of stand alone plastic tanks in use in most of Europe,but that didn't come into the the thinking of the folks making the laws here. Someone would be losing money if that ever happened! Not to mention the fact that any home using PEX tubing for "domestic water use" in the state STILL has to be registered as a "test case" .HUH?)

#3 We've got about the toughest fire prevention codes in the country. People have lived here longer than most of the rest of the country, and we learned from our mistakes.

#4 Some of the codes seem over the top, but we don't have the "worst case scenerios" that some other states have to deal with. Our biggest thing being that the people that write our insurance policies have justifiably and purpously written the codes, by way of the same reps.

Kind of catch 22 eh? Thing here is that most codes and standards are addressed IN WRITING, where lots aren't.

Again, kind of a "catch 22". Like the one legged man in the butt kicking contest....danmed if you do and danmed if you don't. Instead of asking why, ask why not? Then, I guess we listen to the grumblings of those less TRAINED! The answers will amaze all of us. JMHO.

By the way, "incentivize", cool word . I think Funk and Wagnells is looking for that one! Chris

Constantin

Thanks!

I agree that a free-standing plastic tank probably ought to be good enough WRT storing heating oil. We had two 600 gallon units in Germany when I was a kid - freestanding! I still don't know how they got them into the room short of taking down the wall, moving them in, putting the wall back up again.

I also agree that it's ridiculous for PEX to be a test case for water and sprinkler systems. I didn't want to deal with the bureaucratic headaches and went the conventional route - Cu and CPVC. However, when it comes to fire prevention, this is where the rubber meets the road - you can only make it so difficult before most homeowners will say to hell with it and pass on the residential sprinkler systems.

So, granted, we have tough fire codes and hopefully the petrified dino-juice in our walls will never combust as a result. However, we could do a lot more to prevent fires from spreading in the first place by making it easy for folks to install sprinkler systems. That means getting rid of some requirements like 300 gallons of water storage on hand if the house has enough water pressure, for example. Particularly, if the local inspectors office insisted on a fire line to the house!

Speaking of insurance, my insurance now wants me to install exterior lights with motion detectors to light up the construction siste should any unsavory characters approach. Allegedly, this will deter vandals, thieves, and the like. I think it'll simply light their way... Yep, insurance companies get to write a lot of requirements that may or may not serve their customers.

Anyway, like I said, I have nothing against codes as long as they make sense and are enforced by thinking human beings. I've read enough horror stories here about inspectors with oversized egos and/or undersized training to make me realize just how good I have it. However, I think it would make life a lot easier for everyone if the US had a good universal code. Trainers, manufacturers, inspectors, technicans, consumers could benefit.

Perhaps the US code could be done like in the EU, where the EU adopted the strictest code-set, i.e. DIN for the rest of Europe. All the small regional manufacturers howled in protest as the petty laws they had helped craft were rendered impotent and the non-tarriff barriers to entry were removed.

Dave Yates (PAH)

New PA codes

MA may have the toughest codes, but PA is trying to define itself as having the oddest codes. Our new State-wide code includes a new twist on nailer-plates for covering pipes or ductwork to shield them from drywallers and trim carpenters.

Seems the plate has been beefed up and the new reg dictates there are to be no less than eight (8) holes in a straight line for driving in - get this - 16-penny nails. All holes must have a nail too! Eight 16-penny nails in a row - in a 2x4 ??? (That's what our local plumbing inspectors have decided the code meant - fill every hole & there's gotta be eight holes, not six. If the plate has six holes, you must drill two more and fill them too.) Where'd they think the nailer-plate was gonna go? Somebody was smokin something when that got drafted.

Top that off with little to no thought being given about the many areas that never adopted or enforced plumbing codes & we now come up short more than 1,000 plumbing inspectors. Solution? Find bodies & appoint anyone - no qualifications needed for two years while they "learn" the code. Meanwhile - they're now the inspector!

Take my home town of York. Our Mayor decided to get rid of all codes enforcement personnel! Gotta trim the budget. We no longer have any inspectors and they have yet to decide what third-party inspection agency they'll utilize - if one is available.

The codes will never be better than the folks who enforce them. In PA's case, it's been a shambles for decades - if not forever - and it's getting worse - not better.

It gripes me that we (plumbers) must be apprenticed for years prior to being tested for Journeyman status and two more years prior to being tested for Master Plumber status, but those who will be hired to "inspect" our work can simply be appointed with absolutely no qualifications. No testing, no training and no certification.

Now, this year they've added the other trades. In addition to the plumbing, they want me to sit still for my hydronic and HVAC work to be inspected by some lunkhead who got his job because he's the Township Supervisor's cousin? They want me to leave my otherwise productive work and waste an hour's time in order to fill out the mechanical permits in person? BS - I have a business to run. We are professionals, not hacks - speaking of which - the hacks get a free ride. They're only interested in prosecuting licensed contractors and have never - let me repeat that - never once prosecuted anyone working without a license or permit - even when they've been given the information.

Give me competent inspectors or get out of my business.


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