NCI certified CO and combustion analyst

Bill_39

How do I become certified for this?

Rudy

Simple

First you forget most everything you know, they go spend a couple of days with Jim Davis.

It's one of the few 'certification' training programs that will actually give you more on the job skills and a much greater understanding of testing to insure safe, efficient and reliable operation.

Just as importantly, you will learn how to use testing to grow your business.

Plus, you'll have a great time!!

Thier contact info is at:
http://www.nationalcomfortinstitute.com/members/index.cfm

Give Jim a call.

Mark Hunt

Follow Rudy's link


They have the class schecdule posted there.

Like Rudy said, you will probably have to unlearn a few things about CO and combustion and venting.

Since I was never taught anything about those things prior to attending Jim's class, it was pretty easy. But it was a class that scared the you-know-what out of me. I'll never walk into a home without testing for CO again.

Friday evening I went to a home to look at an old boiler and give the folks some options. When I pulled the front cover off there were scorch marks up the inner front panel. Testing with my CO meter showed 26ppm of CO spilling into the home. The customer asked why the CO alarm the have in the room never made a sound, and I got to explain UL-2034 again. I was then asked why NONE of the other heating companies had mentioned this. Answer: Because they don't know.

Take Jim's class. You will have a better understanding of how things work, AND you will realize how important YOU are in keeping families safe as well as comfortable.

Mark H

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Bill_39

THank you

Thank you Mark and Rudy.

Unknown

Joe I am sure

it slipped there minds to ask so I will go ahead and ask you. What is your profession? I have the greatest respect for Jim Davis and NCI but am apprehensive about people who have not had proper pre training before attending Jim's classes. If you are a professional with vast experience in combustion issues then Jim can surely bring you to another level. I get calls from time to time from people who have attended training classes and did not have preliminary training sufficient to handle the class they attended. Example "I am a combustion expert but would like to convert a gas boiler to oil, is it possible to remove the burners in a gas boiler and do this". Or "I attended a combustion training class recently, I have voltage to a gas valve(actually only had voltage to a relay) I replaced the valve and it will not work". What was this tech doing wrong you might ask? The valve was a Powerpile Valve he replaced it with a 24 volt valve, actual problem was several bad splices holding the job off. I strongly encourage anyone who is going to service gas systems to get basic training before you go into more advanced training. It is not always the case that we need to unlearn what we know but to sharpen the skills we already have.

Bill_39

Tim

I am a plumbing and heating contractor. I just want to learn more about testing CO

Unknown

Good Joe, Jim Davis

will be able to help you increase your skills. Keep an open mind. If I can be of any help just get in touch.

Charlesj

CO detectors

I'm a homeowner & i've been comming here for a while just to find out information.....There has been a thread about CO detectors & none of them seem to be to good....Can anyone tell me what is a good on that detects CO levels before you start to get sic from it.Any input on this would be greatly appreicated....One other thing someone told me that CO is heavy so why would you put the CO detector on the ceiling....

Mark Hunt

CO is NOT heavy


it is lighter than oxygen and will concentrate higher up.

CO Experts and NCI have great low level monitors, you may have to look around for someone that offers them as they are not available through retail outlets.

Where are you located?

Mark H



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Unknown

Charles welcome to the Wall

The over the counter CO detectors are required to fall under UL2034 specifications for alarming. That alarming is at a point higher than it really should be. With that in mind it is very difficult for most of us here on the wall to recommend a detector. However it is important to have a detector so if you do not have one then I certainly recommend you purchase one and install it. Having said that the detectore we recommend are CO Experts and NCI low level detectors. These are not sold over the counter but must be purchased from a heating contractor.

The problem with UL 2034 detectors is that they allow levels above 70 PPM and higher before alarming. This means that babies, elderly, people with respiratory problems are not protected. It is necessary for an alarm to go off long before it is dangerous to all of us and certainly those who could be affected by even lower levels.

Over the counter alarms do not display below 30 PPM

No warning alarm below 70 PPM

No warning at 70 ppm for 60 minutes (can be delayed for 239 minutes)

No warning at 150 ppm for 10 minutes (can be delayed for 49 minutes

No warning at 400 ppm for 10 minutes (can be delayed for 14 minutes.

This is not acceptable

Co Experts and NCI display at 5 PPM (1 PPM recall)

Audible and visible alarm at 10 PPM

More intense warning at 25 PPM

at higher levels these are already alarming.

Because these detectors go off at lower levels you do not typically need a first responder (fire dept or utility) but would call your Heating contractor who sold you the unit.

Contacts for Co Experts www.coexperts.com

National Comfort Institute www.nationalinstitute.com

Carbon Monoxide has a specific gravity around .96 which makes it slightly lighter than air air being 1.0. The best location for a detector is at a location I call "Head to Bed" when standing to lying down is the level CO will typically be accumulating depending on air movement. Smoke alarms should be on the ceilings not CO detectors. The detectors should be in bedrooms and living areas. Stay clear of cooking areas and directly next to heating and water heating equipment including fireplaces, wood stoves etc. Try to be about 20 to 25 feet away from those sources.
If you have small children they may not wake up with an alarm in their bedroom especially with the door closed so you want to be able to hear the alarm go off. A baby room monitor in conjuction with the detector is advised.

Thank you for your inquiry and if you need any further information contact me at gastc@cox.net or call at 401-437-0557. I will send you for free and entire manual on Carbon Monoxide. Just send me your postal mailing address.

Charlesj

I'm located in Maine

Bill_39

Tim

I am going to take all of your classes as soon as I have the time.

Jim Davis_3

CO Certification

Joe C.,
Thanks for your interest. Just got back into town and read your post. My classes are for beginners and pros. It is harder for most people with experience because they have to accept everything they have done to date, while being correct to most instructions, is in reality non-functional. Having taught vocational school students, firemen, police, government agencies, home inspectors, utilities, code officials, manufacturers, secretaries, lawyers and HVAC contractors the level of knowledge starting out is not totally important in this class. Common sense has more to do with my class than IQ. The number one thing that is stessed in our class is to know that there is a problem or there is not, 100% percent of the time. Confidence in realizing you have this ability when you finish is something that will come with experience, but then my cell phone number is given to everyone and I take calls 24/7. Give me a call if you have any questions.
Second note: CO Experts Monitors alarm at 25ppm and only display at 10ppm and have a top reading of 70ppm. NSI3000 alarms at 15ppm and displays at 5ppm and will read up to 999ppm.

Unknown

Jim does that now mean

that all those who attended your classes and completed the test are certified Carbon Monoxide Experts? I would think that some of those who attend are seeking information only. I do not think they would be adjusting a 2,000,000 BTU gas boiler, maybe I am wrong.

I strongly feel that it is one thing to offer education but when you give certification then that steps into another realm. How can someone be an expert who has never serviced a gas boiler or furnace?

I have many of the same people you have in my classes, I do not however certify them nor do I call them experts. A two or three day class with you or with me or anyone else does not make them an expert. Educate them as to the dangers of CO and help them to recognize actions to be taken to prevent incidents I whole heartedly agree with. I would not let someone who has not had extensive training on gas equipment touch any equipment I am involved with.

I read many posts here and on other sites and it scares me some of the things people post that they do with natural gas and LP gas. It is not only CO that kills but the fuel can blow you to kingdom come or give you some terrible burns. We just had a house blow up nearby from an LP gas leak. Safety is more than just CO it covers all aspects of the business. I have been spending a lot of time in thought about things I have been hearing in the last six months from a number of so called experts. I can not in good faith endorse making people experts in a two or three day class. I recently turned down several applicants to my classes because I did not feel they had sufficient work experience to handle what is presented. I guess I lose money when I do that but I feel very strongly about proper training and how it is presented. Something inside of me will not let me come to full agreement on the way NCI presents what it does. I do not have any animosity toward anyone it is just that I am not comfortable with this certification and expert business.

The complete servicing of gas equipment covers many facets and requires long hours of training and experience. I can not speak for oil, wood, coal they are not my areas of expertise.

I do not want to get into discussions with all of NCI's graduates as many of you are experts and have valuable work experience and training that you bring to their classes. I hope everyone understands what I am trying to say here.

I guess it would also be appropriate to say that I do not find that all NATE graduates relative to gas knowledge should be called experts either. What qualifications and areas of expertise in other areas of training they offer I can not speak concerning I only am talking about gas knowledge.

Maybe I am looking for some Utopia that does not exist or maybe never will. I am privledged to know some very talented and qualified gas experts and when I compare them with some others who claim to be experts I find most sorely lacking.

Jim Davis_3

CO Certifications

Timmie,
This is a certification that states you have received the necessary training and information, based on years of real field testing and investigation and have passed a written test and understand the information provided. I refuse to be called an expert because field experience is not a criteria. I have been in many court cases where the expert from the other side has no experience other than court cases. People have a refrigerant certification but they are not experts. NATE has a certification but they do not call themselves experts. It is kind of like saying because you have a drivers license you are an expert driver. Our certification validates that 100% of the information in this class has been verified to be accurate and when used as given will provide 100% accurate results. It doesn't make people use it and when they don't they are just an embarassment to the industry. This class does not teach you how to change a gas valve but how to determine its bad. We don't teach how to install a boiler but rather how to determine if it is working safe and efficient.
I know your comments are for the good of all and I appreciate them and look forward to anytime you and I can talk. One thing I know for sure after two days is that everyone of my students realize that they have no idea if any of their jobs are working correctly but they know how to check. After 2 days I tell my students that everything that I know is on one 8-1/2 X 11 page in the back of my manual. Recently one of my students had the audacity to put all I know on 2 sides of a business card.

Unknown

Jim I guess it is an

interpretation of words. The New England area has very stong feelings about the word certify and its distinction from the word liscensed. I understand what you are saying but it is not you and I that have to understand. I was recently certified and approved by the state of RI to be the training facility for training to sit for the gas liscense. I have a liscense in the state also. Now I do not for one moment think that just because you have a liscense that you necessarily know what you are doing. In order for this to happen I had to meet government standards for training and education and my program had to be approved by the state. They verified its authenticity by having it evaluated by an outside testing agency. In RI the only certifying agensy is the Dept of Regulation.

I am curious as to who verified your material as accurate? I would like to have some of my material verified by them if possible.

Mark Hunt

BPI


certified me after only one of Jim's courses.(I attended more)

In fact, I believe it was Jim Davis that wrote the BPI protocol for CO.

You may know this answer Timmie. Who certified fireman as experts in CO?

How did firemen become the CO guys?

Mark H



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Rudy

This has nothing to do with liscensing

The stuff Jim talks about has nothing to do with the 'authority having jurisdiction', it is all about very simple common sense...

This stuff ain't rocket science, good grief, until 1998 the NFPA 54 specified that draft testing was to be done with a cigarette, now it says to test draft with a piece of paper, set on fire and blown out (which is fortunate cause I quit smokin' - four months, two weeks, 3 days, 7 hours and 23 minutes ago)....

If I was having someone (other than myself) set up the oil burners in my own home, I'd rather have Jim do it than someone with a liscense from ANY state ....

I have my 'Universal' refrigeration certification, but if I owned a commercial building with a chiller, I'd be the last person I'd allow to service it....

JMHO

Jim Davis_3

Verification

It is very hard to have an outside testing agency that has no experience in the information you are providing to test it. First it would have to be tested in the field which has infinite variables that cannot be duplicated in a lab and it would take tens of thousands of field tests. Obviously AGA has varified barometrics as being more viable over drafthoods and Brookhaven Labs have accepted my CO on oil diagnostics. But what I find more substantial when it comes to verifying information is having thousands of persons never being able to prove anything is incorrect even though that was their main goal. When I teach that 2-stage and modulation uses more fuel than single stage equipment there has not been a manufacturer that has tried to prove this wrong and has failed. Their comeback is they never said it was more efficient, just more comfortable. Stating that the venting tables and code approved combustion air can make a job more dangerous has been proven over and over. The field is the only place that information can be verified to be accurate, not a lab. Many people can offer useless certifications and they are out there so unfortunately it is up to the student to determine the validity of the information. But as you know the majority choose not to know the difference and would rather remain in the dark because they have been successful at doing things wrong for years. Proper CO testing and Combustion testing equipment has only been available for less than 20 years and the real knowledge to use it even less.