UL-2034

Mark Hunt

http://ulstandardsinfonet.ul.com/scopes/2034.html

"1.2.1 Carbon monoxide alarms covered by this standard are not intended to alarm when exposed to long-term, low-level carbon monoxide exposures or slightly higher short-term transient carbon monoxide exposures, possibly caused by air pollution and/or properly installed/maintained fuel-fired appliances and fireplaces. See Table 38.1, Part B, False alarm resistance specifications.


1.2.1 added effective October 1, 1998"

You see that?

"Carbon monoxide alarms covered by this standard are not intended to alarm when exposed to long-term, low-level carbon monoxide exposures or slightly higher short-term transient carbon monoxide exposures, possibly caused by air pollution and/or properly installed/maintained fuel-fired appliances and fireplaces."

It is trult amazing what you find when you look for something.

To Rudy Leatherman,

Your presentation at ISH was outstanding! I am looking real hard at UL-2034. What a joke.

More to follow.

Mark H

<A HREF="http://www.heatinghelp.com/getListed.cfm?id=238&Step=30">To Learn More About This Professional, Click Here to Visit Their Ad in "Find A Professional"</A>

Mark Hunt

More


UL 2034 also requires that CO detectors ignore the presence of low CO concentrations that are nor considered to be a threat to healthy adults. the objective here is to reduce nuisance alarms. UL considers a nuisance alarm to be an activation when the CO concentration is not high enough to create a 10 percent COHb level in a healthy adult. The current test requires that a CO detector ignore 15 PPM of CO for a minimum of eight hours.

Notice the use of the term "healthy adults".

Mark H

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John R. Hall

Mark

We've got to strike while the iron is hot. Jennifer is willing to tell our side of the story of she can find an interviewee. And just think, maybe the story can be picked up by the national news. Yes, wishful thinking, but one can dream!

Mark Hunt

Hey


I'm all for that.

We'll talk soon.


Mark H

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jerry scharf_2

healthy adult

At least healthy before the exposure. And of course no one would care about the infants, elderly and others with compromised respiratory systems. They tend to stay in the house almost full time...

very sad.

jerry

don_55

\"Chicago Story\" no Co allowed

Gents,

Remember the "Chicago Story" guess what;

Home of UL 2034

USA
Corporate Headquarters
333 Pfingsten Road
Northbrook, IL 60062-2096 ( Suburban Chicago )
Telephone: +1-847-272-8800
Customer Service: +1-877-854-3577
Fax: +1-847-272-8129
E-mail: customerservice.nbk@us.ul.com
Hours of operation: Monday to Friday, 7:00 AM to 6:00 PM

city gov't and corp. pressure, they folded, that's
the story.

To sicken things even further,
From the new chicago mech code;

711 CARBON MONOXIDE DETECTORS
18-28-711.1 Carbon monoxide alarms. Carbon monoxide
detectors shall be provided as required in Sections 13-64-190 through 13-64-280.

mech code says yes it 16 seperate cases, muni code
says weeeeeellll, see exemptions ( b ).

From the chicago muni code;

13-64-190 Carbon monoxide detectors--Required in residential units.
Every building of residential or mixed occupancy and having one or more residential units shall be equipped with approved carbon monoxide detectors in accordance with this chapter.
For purposes of this chapter "residential unit" includes Class A-1 single-family dwellings as defined in Section 13-56-030 of this Code and Class A-2 multiple dwellings as defined in Section 13-56-040 of this Code.
(Added Coun. J. 3-2-94, p. 46875)

13-64-200 Carbon monoxide detectors--Exemptions.
The following residential units shall not require carbon monoxide detectors:
(a) A residential unit in a building that does not rely on combustion of fossil fuel for heat, ventilation or hot water, and is not sufficiently close to any ventilated source of carbon monoxide, as determined by the building commissioner, to receive carbon monoxide from that source.
(b) A residential unit that (1) is heated by steam, hot water or electric heat, and (2) is not connected by ductwork or ventilation shafts to any room containing a fossil fuel-burning boiler or heater, and (3) is not sufficiently close to any ventilated source of carbon monoxide, as determined by the building commissioner, to receive carbon monoxide from that source.
(Added Coun. J. 3-2-94, p. 46875)

bwhahahahah.... exemptions?

you should see what they did to article 7,
absolute rubbish, lawyered over an cherry picked.

must be part of the gentrification agenda.

if one cannot acertain what type of venting / flue
( nfpa app_c 2004 ) or combustion air req's
( imc art 7 ) they need on their own their basically
screwed here, in a city of 9 million souls there's
2 contractors that post here + a few ho's funny huh?

grab the money and run, 99 knuckleheads to 1.

these guys need information / training and exposure
to "the enlighted" ways of the wall.

be safe, don

more to follow: tales of a Co, knucleheads, greed and ignorance

Mark Hunt

Exactly what I have been saying


Thanks for posting that Don.

This is what happens when government tries to oversee anything.

It is up to the PHVAC industry to take the lead here, before Big Brother.

Mark H

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don_52

More important than...

we all realize...

the unintentional death rate in this country is
absolutely shocking, I am loathe to quote numbers
or provide links, someone may think I'm trying
to be a "fear monger" or make a political statment,
which rest assured I'm not.

To the point of "UL2034 / "Scary CO Stuff"

What I can do is provide photos and documentation
as to prove how woefully inadequate that the combustion
systems / flue / make up air were when we moved in to
our new old house.

Quite suprised that the prior owners weren't killed.

Photos of the carbon black above the water heater from
repeated pilot outages / cold starts / condensation and
backdrafting are quite telling.

Photos of the boiler that was completely destroyed by
improper piping, lack of "expert" maintenance and
most importantly "external corrosion" caused by
acidic condensation due to backdrafting.
( the pins were falling off the castings )

This sort of thing isn't suprising when the 8 x 10
unlined chimney spec. is like 597,000 BTU's minimum
for a +4 to -10 degree design region.

Nobody ever caught it, when people tell me that their
pilots keep going out or have to be replaced due to
sooting or carbon build up the "first thing" that is
suspect is flue, vent, combustion air combo.

Now tell someone that they need a stainless liner, permanent
wall openings properly sized for the load and either move
or replace their water heater and increase the vent from
3" to 4" and make sure it's within 6' of the breech;

They'll say how much? Not how dangerous, am I at risk?

What then, don't want to spend the money, can't afford it;
just doesn't "get it", that won't happen to me!

WHATEVER! How do you make your case then?, The city
doesn't even require most of what I just wrote for
"existing residential buildings".

AAAAAAAAAARRRRRRGGGGG!!!!!!!

Hey , I'm the easy sell, I'm on your side, whatever I
could do to help push this I will.

S Davis

Co

What model CO dectetors are good? I am thinking of including one in all of our new installs as well as first time service calls.

S Davis


Apex Radiant Heating

Rudy

Thanks Mark!

And I learned a bunch from you as well. Your analogy was right on the mark regarding the new requirement that hot water tanks be designed so an idiot can throw gasoline on it when only 17 folks have met their demise that way (just turns out one of the victims was a senator’s son) while co poisoning is the NUMBER ONE cause of accidental poisoning deaths in the US – I’ve already used that example numerous times.

If you want to have some more fun, read the GRI report on the performance and reliability of CO alarms.

The full report is at:

http://www.gastechnology.org/webroot/downloads/en/4ReportsPubs/TechReports/020112.pdf

The ‘summary’ pretty much says it all:

Findings parallel the results of earlier studies, indicating that the poor performance of commercial CO alarms has not significantly improved. These tests reveal that a significant portion of some widely installed alarm brands did not alarm in CO poisoning incidents with potentially lethal consequences. In particular, they did not adequately protect at low relative humidity. Digital display readings on some alarms showed little relationship to actual CO levels. Results indicate that certification to UL 2034 does not assure the performance or reliability of CO alarms.

Mark Hunt

CO experts and NCI


have what I believe to be the best available. They are low level monitors and use electrochemical sensors.

Best part is the neither of them carry the UL-2034 listing, which means they actually work!

www.coexperts.com

www.nationalcomfortinstitute.com

You will want to get educated on these units so that you can educate the people you sell them to. These units will catch low levels of CO and they are not cross-sensative to other chemicals.

They make excellent Christmas gifts too!!!

Mark H

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Mark Hunt

NO WAY!


THANK YOU!!!!!!!

Before Jim Davis and Rudy Leatherman got hold of me, I was not much more than an arsonist. Setting fire to things with no real concern of what happened next.
(Like that? Arsonist?)

Won't the high five be great when we win?!?!?!?

Look forward to spending more time chatting!

Mark H

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Al D'Ambola_2

CO Expert vs NSI 3000

Mark,

One major difference is that homeowners can purchase directly from CO Expert, therefore cutting you the contractor out of the picture.

NCI only sells to contractors.