Leaky chimney, gas boiler, wimpy service men

Matt Kubilus

We acquired a 1900 large brick house over the summer. The house is heated by an large (270,000 BTU) old (50's or 60's) Janitrol boiler. This is a hot water, not steam heat system with radiators throughout the house. The house is approx. 3,400 square feet.

As fall aproached, we hired someone to look at the boiler. He believed that the boiler was running in tip top shape. (Now I should mention that he did not have any sort of CO detection device, he just looked at the boiler, turned it on, went Mmm Hmm and said it looked good) However, he though that the chimney may not be venting properly, he suggested there might be a serious risk of CO poisoning. His recommendation was to get a chimney sweep out to clean and inspect the chimney before we ran the boiler. Sounded like good advice.

So we hire a chimney sweep. One guy comes out, takes one look at the house and tells me that 'Oops, it's too tall, we'll have to get a second person to help.' Three weeks later, two different guys return (one is the owner of the company), take another look at my house and tell me they don't feel comfortable cleaning my chimney. The mortar on the chimney looks like it has decayed to a degree and the chimney has developed a slight lean. They suggest I get a bucket truck to come and clean the chimney. This would be impossible because of how my house is set back from the road! Now since, they didn't tell me this three weeks ago, all other chimney sweeps are booked for months!!! The owner of the company suggested I use ventless gas heaters because they were perfectly safe!! Now I've read enough to know that is not true. (Wonder how many ventless gas heaters it would take to heat 3,400 square feet, laughs)

So now, Winter is pretty much here, I have a cold house and furnace that could potentially kill me and my family and no one in the Chattanooga, Tennessee area seems able to help me. What are my options! Are there direct vent boilers? Should I try to climb up there and install my own liner? I'm looking at the inexpensive Selkirk liners sold here: http://www.alpinehomeair.com/viewcategory-12.htm. Can I use just any liner with a gas boiler. Help!

DaveGateway

Don't start a CO panic

A problem might not even exsist. Why not get a good CO detector and see if you get any high readings around the house first. I would also start with a service tech that walks in with a combustion analyser. Consider all your options first. A new boiler would probably require a different size liner then one for your current boiler. The size of a boiler replacement will also be dictated by a heat loss calc done on the home. Any plans of upgraded windows, doors and insulation should be should be done first as not to install more boiler then you need.

Boston Boiler

Matt

You need to find out what your state and local codes are before you install or choose what you are going to install for your liner. Too bad this company left you in the cold but don't take any chances. Be sure it is in a safe working order before you use it.

BB

Matt Kubilus

Thanks for the quick responses!

Okay, so what motivated me to call the boiler service guy in the first place was that the boiler Did set off my CO detector that I had in the basement! Some of the pipe from the boiler exhausetlooked like it was leaking where two pieces joined. I have since wrapped that in aluminum tape.

Also, a room upstairs shares a wall with the chimney. This is an exposed brick wall and there appears to be some mortar damage here as well. I can take a small piece of wire and stick it through the mortar in a few spots, so I know there is a leak. Judging from the handiwork I've seen from the previous owner, I'm assuming there is probably no proper liner in the chimney at all.

I have not cut the furnace on since.

And yes, we are in the process of replacing windows, insulating attics, etc. I was hoping to get through at least one winter with the existing system before I did any major replacements.

dconnors

direct vent will eliminate a chimney liner

Try going thru the wall if possible. This way no one has to climb the chimney. Sounds like you might save some energy dollars too. And of course, blue boilers look the best. :-)

BillW@honeywell

Certified Chimney Sweeps...

can be found by calling the National Chimney Sweep Guild at 317 837 1500. CSIA certified sweeps carry a picture ID with a number on it, and are certified to do any sort of chimney work. They have had extensive training, and have all the necessary equipment to do the job right. Don't risk fire or CO poisoning by dealing with any non-certified sweeps.

hdblackburn

Matt, Sorry to hear your woes. Are their any other tell tale signs that the system may have been leaking? I ask because I am just about in the same boat; toward the stern in Baltimore. I have seen soot trails along wall/ceiling interface in basement. I cannot figure out where these trails originate. The previous owners wern't very tidy. So dirt accumulation could have been from any thing. The most likely I can figure was the oil fired furnace, however, my CO monitors are quiet. This sure is a new adventure.

Mark Hunt

CO alarm placement


Dear Matt and hd,

I read both of your posts and both of you indicate that your CO alarms are in the basement. Is this true?

I hope you have other alarms in the house, preferably near sleeping areas. You probably wouldn't hear an alarm in the basement should it go off.

As for the alarms, you probably own UL listed devices. UL 2034 compliant CO alarms will NOT alarm at anything less than 70ppm and they can wait 4 hours before sounding the alarm.(Per UL-2034) If you have units with digital displays, they CAN NOT display anything under 30ppm and may not even show that. Those alarms are not designed to detect lower level CO readings.

Matt, can you call the utility and ask if they have a qualified field tech to check your system?

I will see if I can locate someone near you in the mean time.

Mark H

To Learn More About This Professional, Click Here to Visit Their Ad in "Find A Professional"

Jack_21

Replace the boiler

When you find out what the chimney cleaning is going to tell you, which from your description is that the chimney is shot and probably unlined and need to be redone, and get a quote for that work you are still going to be stuck with a kinda new chimney venting a 50 yr old oversized boiler. Put you money into a new heating plant, direct vent or condensing, modulating boiler and sir, you will be smiling. In the mean time I would recommend that you check out www.rinnai.us. Energysaver DV heaters. They are excellent!

Matt Kubilus

I placed the unit in the basement when I fired my furnace up at first hoping that I would catch leaks quicker in the basement than on the second floor where the bedrooms are located. I have since moved the CO unit to the hallway between the bedrooms. My unit is a Kidde that is supposed to alarm at 70ppm within 60-240 minutes 150 ppm within 10-50 minutes or 400ppm within 4-15 ppm. No digital display.

I called Chattanooga Gas, they do not do service calls of any kind. Also the furnace tech I called was from the big company in town that has since bought all the small service companies, so I would get the same service regardless of who I called.

Matt Kubilus

Inside I noticed thin lines of soot in small cracks between the mortar and the brick. To test the depths of the cracks, I took a small piece of 14 gauge copper wire and stuck it through the crack until I was satisfied that I had traveled much further than brick length.

Tony_8

what about ?

A sidewall power venter to get you through this Winter ? A lot less money than a new boiler right away and removes the threats of a bad chimney. Tjernlund and Field Controls make good units for about any application out there.

Mark Hunt

Matt


I am trying to find an NCI certified CO and combustion analyst in your area.

I know they do training down there, so there has to be someone.

As soon as I hear back from the folks at NCI, I'll get the info to you.

Mark H

To Learn More About This Professional, Click Here to Visit Their Ad in "Find A Professional"

Matt Kubilus

That's an interesting idea. I'm checking out the Field Controls now. It looks like these vent straight out the side of the house, will this kill my neighbors whose house is about 12 feet away?

This may be a good stop gap for the winter. Thanks.

Tony_8

check

local codes for distance requirements. I see no problem with 12 feet.

Gene Howley

Scared chimney sweeps

Maybe they were scared and smart at the same time. I too have 1900's home that originally had pot belly stoves and two chimneys (but now only one). The house was converted to gravity warm air at some time and fed into one of the chimneys, of which both had no liners. There was a fire in the attic in 1976 wich took off the roof in the front half of the house. Contractors came in to replace the roof and roofers came in to shingle. Roofer stands up one day and leaned against the chimney. This almost cost him his life as the chimney shifted and landed in the driveway. Right above the roofline the mortar had disintegrated from the condensation of flue gasses. So when a chimney sweep tells you he is not comfortable working on it, there may be good reason. PS I am not a chimney sweep, but have been in the field for over 30 years and know that a great deal of chimneys should be retired.

Dave_16

Still had to install a liner

I got you all beat! 1830's house with a decaying chimney and a sketchy homeowner-modified exhaust blower. We ended up getting a new direct vent boiler, but *still* had to install a stainless liner for the hot water heater, per local code, even though a clay liner (from maybe the 60's?) was installed at some point. I assume this is because the water heater exhaust isn't hot enough to make it's own draft on a cold, windy winter night?

Bob Harper

certified chimney sweeps?

Bill, I have a problem with your post. You laud only certified sweeps as being "extensively trained, have all the necessary equipment, and are certified to do any sort of chimney work". Well, that's just not true.

Being Certified means you passed an exam on NFPA 211 and their manual, Successful Chimney Sweeping. You also have to give them about $350.00. There is no training requirement. You can attend classes at conventions or in Indy at their HQ. Nobody is certfying anybody to do any work--the Cert. means you passed a test-period. Not all sweeps have "all the equipment".

I know this because I'm a FORMER Certified Chimney Sweep. I did not renew because of a political rift. I quit the NCSG while I chaired the Tech. Advisory Cmte. for the NCSG. I am currently a Certified Chimney Inspector and Certified Instructor for the National Fireplace Institute in Gas and Wood. Does that make me a lousy, untrustworthy sweep? I don't appreciate your implication dealing with me is a CO risk. I'll have you know I've saved at least 4 families this season from CO posioning caused by blocked boiler flues. So where the hell is the boiler expert???

There are good and bad in every profession, man. Just think next time before you post something so inflammatory, please. I know you meant well but you slammed a lot of good sweeps. Less than 10% of the sweeps in the country are Certified by the CSIA. Most are good sweeps, too.