Scary stuff about CO

John R. Hall

This is an excerpt from a news story run by a Jacksonville TV station:

"With the help of the Jacksonville Fire Department, First Coast News put carbon monoxide test to the test by filling a room with the deadly fumes.

We bought five home detectors, ranging in price from about $20 to 50 dollars. Here’s a list of the alarms we tested:




Kidde Basic Carbon Monoxide Alarm – $19.97

Kidde Nighthawk Smoke and Carbon Monoxide Alarm -- $34.43

Kidde Nighthawk Carbon Monoxide Alarm (with digital read/back up plug in) -- $48.96

kidde Carbon Monoxide (with digital read) -- $34.97

First Alert Carbon (plug in) -- $19.97



Lt. Todd Smith set up the five detectors and filled the room with the deadly poison.
He also brought his own professional detector used by firefighters to gauge the accuracy of detectors you'd find in the store.

We asked Dr. Aaron Hilliard of the Duval County Health Department to explain the levels of carbon monoxide and what they mean to your health. These are the ranges and its effects at prolonged periods of exposure:




0-70 – usually no visible symptoms

70-150 – headache, dizziness, fatigue

More than 150 – disoriented and unconscious

More than 400 - brain dead and death



Dr. Hilliard says each person is affected differently.

"Depending on their medical condition can start to experience headache, dizziness, fatigue," he said.

"Above the 150 level you can be disoriented and unconscious."

At the five minute range, the levels in the room reached 137 and no alarms sounded. At eight-and-a-half minutes in, levels reached 250. By 11 minutes, they jumped to 400. And finally, at 14 minutes and 20 seconds, the alarms all sounded within about one minute of each other.

The readings of the home detectors were lower at all times than the professional equipment, but about in the same range.

Both Dr. Hilliard and Lt. Smith say though the numbers were high before the alarms sounded, the detectors did their job according to Underwriter Laboratory standards.

"They alarmed at the appropriate levels," Smith said. "All of them."

"Just being exposed to the 640 level for 15 minutes probably won't cause adverse heath effects, but prolonged exposed for an hour or more will," Hilliard added.

The detectors will sound at different levels and times depending on the concentration of carbon monoxide in the room.

If you buy a CO detector, it's recommended by the fire department that you make its UL stamped to assure the quality according to the Underwriter's Laboratory."




How about a follow-up story about the young, old and sick who would might die using this test criteria? It's a credit to the station to raise awareness, but they need to tell the WHOLE story.

Dave Yates (PAH)

The Dr. needs a check up from the neck up

he needs to get a bit more educated. If you get us an address, no doubt a few letters to the editor might see ink.

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John R. Hall

Here is link

Perhaps the good doctor should ask his family members to sit in the room while these detectors are put to the test.

http://www.firstcoastnews.com/news/local/news-article.aspx?storyid=27833

Darin Cook_3

Acute poisonings


are pretty easy to detect as there is usually a body to carry out of the home.

Chronic exposure or prolonged exposure to low levels of CO can be devastating to ones health.

I guess the doctor and the people at UL think it's ok to drink a little bit of poison? Every day? Every night?



Darin

Dave Yates (PAH)

follow the link

John put up a link to the story and if you click on the gal's name who ran the segment, you'll be sent to her bio page where you'll find her e-mail address. Also - on the home page you'll see a "contact us" link and that'll get you a listing for the station managers & their e-mail addresses.

I sent her an e-mail and copied the station manager. In it, I explained that both the Dr and Fire Dept. missed the mark by a wide margin and that they (the station) would be doing their viewers a great service if they followed up with another more accurate report and included several heating pros to go over why having appliances checked annually is so important.

Please take a minute to lend your voice by dropping the station and the reporter a polite note about how important it is to get out the truth.

E-mail for Jennifer: jbrice@firstcoastnews.com

E-mail for her boss: Ktonning@firstcoastnews.com

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Rudy

Done

Just spent a week on the road training. Did several 'tests' of UL 2034 approved CO alarms - the results (as always) were pathetic.
Just emailed Jennifer, we'll see what happens.....

John R. Hall

Mark Hunt/Jim Davis

A few words from these gentlemen (and Timmie) should drive home the point, too. I'll write up something and post it here on Friday.

Rudy

Holy cow

Just got a response from Jennifer. She said that "I believe the UL standards are part of the problem."
I don't know what she can do, but at least she appears to be a pretty sharp person and has a grasp of the real problem!!

John_60

I sent her one

I asked if those levels are safe why was the firefighter wearing his air tank and mask?

Mark Hunt

If I had a dime

for every story like this, I'd be a wealthy man.

The ignorance surrounding this issue is amazing.

Who is going to take the blame when someone dies from CO poisoning when one of those junk detectors fails to operate OR operates within UL 2034 guidelines?

I didn't make this issue up, I just decided to get involved.

The PHVAC industry has a chance to be real heros here.


Mark H



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Dave Yates (PAH)

give Jennifer a shout!

I sent a reply back to her reply and invited her to visit this thread. Bets on her becoming a Wallie?!?

Mark, drop her a note. She seems to be very much interested in investigating this in more depth and, according to her bio, she's already won awards for her investigative reports. She may well turn out to be the link needed to get this issue the needed national coverage by exposing the flaws.

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John R. Hall

My letter

Here is my letter to the TV station:

Jennifer:

I am sure that you have heard from several people who sell, install, test, and service heating equipment regarding your carbon monoxide alarm "test" which ran on your television station recently. I'd also like to add my comments as a member of the HVAC trade media and not as an expert on CO testing and combustion analysis. My knowledge of the topic comes from conversations with contractors and experts; and understanding the serious medical consequences of poorly operating HVAC equipment.


I know that the CO alarms which are designed to alert building occupants of the presence of CO are woefully designed to alarm at levels that are too high for certain people, i.e. infants, elderly, people with medical/breathing difficulties, etc. The problem is, UL Standard 2034 guidelines is a flawed document, which many HVAC professionals are fighting to change.


I don't believe that the doctor your station used as a medical expert, is aware -- or if he is -- may be ignorant of this problem. His quote, "Just being exposed to the 640 level for 15 minutes probably won't cause adverse heath effects, but prolonged exposed for an hour or more will" is totally absurd and gives your viewers a false sense of security if they have CO detectors in their homes similar to ones used in your test. Perhaps the good doctor should ask his family members to sit in the room while these detectors are put to the test.


I urge you to reexamine this issue, talk to experts in our field (whose names I can provide), and run a follow-up to this report. It may save lives.

Mark Hunt

Excellent letter John

> Here is my letter to the TV

> station:

>

> Jennifer: I am sure that you have

> heard from several people who sell, install,

> test, and service heating equipment regarding

> your carbon monoxide alarm "test" which ran on

> your television station recently. I'd also like

> to add my comments as a member of the HVAC trade

> media and not as an expert on CO testing and

> combustion analysis. My knowledge of the topic

> comes from conversations with contractors and

> experts; and understanding the serious medical

> consequences of poorly operating HVAC

> equipment.

>

> I know that the CO alarms which

> are designed to alert building occupants of the

> presence of CO are woefully designed to alarm at

> levels that are too high for certain people, i.e.

> infants, elderly, people with medical/breathing

> difficulties, etc. The problem is, UL Standard

> 2034 guidelines is a flawed document, which many

> HVAC professionals are fighting to change.

> I don't believe that the doctor your station used

> as a medical expert, is aware -- or if he is --

> may be ignorant of this problem. His quote, "Just

> being exposed to the 640 level for 15 minutes

> probably won't cause adverse heath effects, but

> prolonged exposed for an hour or more will" is

> totally absurd and gives your viewers a false

> sense of security if they have CO detectors in

> their homes similar to ones used in your test.

> Perhaps the good doctor should ask his family

> members to sit in the room while these detectors

> are put to the test.

>

> I urge you to

> reexamine this issue, talk to experts in our

> field (whose names I can provide), and run a

> follow-up to this report. It may save lives.





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Mark Hunt

Excellent letter John


I'll be sending one to Jennifer as well.

Maybe we'll get some traction with this one.

Mark H

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Dean_7

CO dectectors

I sent Jennifer a copy of my October post about what happened to my mother in law and lowlevel CO poisoning. Hope it helps.

PS
If anyone wants to read it just type in CO poisoning in the search feature.

John R. Hall

Jennifer looking for interviewee

Jennifer would like to interview someone in the local area to tell our side of the story. Maybe we can get our heads together and deliver her a subject!

Dave Yates (PAH)

The ideal candidate

Should be an effective speaker; one who knows this subject; has proper combustion analysis equipment and CO detection sniffers; is comfortable in front of the camera and can work without a script.

Either talk while checking/clearing a blocked chimney; performing a combustion analysis; checking for CO in ductwork, in room air or tracing its source (an attached garage - for instance) - all the while explaining about CO and carboxyhemoglobin - or while doing these same things be answering questions posed by Jennifer (can be off-camera asking same).

In other words - be interactive and proactive in demonstrating it is the PHVAC pros who homeowners should be calling in for trustworthy safety inspections. The pro being filmed should also be well versed in current UL-2034 regs and (briefly) explain why they so desperately need revision. Dean's story bears witness to why others besides healthy adults should be considered in the regs.

She'll need to convince her boss that this can't be a two-minute quickie. In fact, it might be best broken into multiple segments, which may well serve to draw viewers from other stations and gain much wider coverage. The station could promo the "investigative series which will uncover startling truths about a silent killer lurking in your home", etc... You could put 60-Minutes to shame if it's done right. The best part though, is that lives would be saved.

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Unknown

Dave, problem

I have done two or three of those segments on CO lasting up to an hour in camera time and about six hours of actual sudio time. When it was presented on TV it had been cut to pieces and was a 10 minute segment not counting time for commercials. I now refuse to do them for just that reason. It is not the reporters fault it is the editing and producing side of the business.

I guess there is always the possibility that things will change but do not get your hopes up.

I wonder is there anyone who could do such a presentation that lives in Jacksonville, Fla.?

Dave Yates (PAH)

location, location, location

I'm talking about tightly plotted time frames that are designed to mesh into a longer time-frame. Each segment would have to fit within the nightly TV broadcast allotment given Jennifer. Something with a visceral punch that will linger in the viewers minds. And, there's no real need for the individual to be in her local with current communication around the globe available in the wink of an eye. CO knows no State boundaries. They're an NBC affilliate, so going national isn't out of the realm of possibilities & I'd bet that once it was "in-the-can", her station manager could give the national news program gurus a sneak peak to tweak their interest. Hard work required at all levels.

Whenever we perform a combustion analysis and either ask the homeowner to be present or share the printout info with them, they remark that this is the first time anyone has taken the time to explain the importance or meaning of the test. The beauty of that, is they will expect that the next time - no matter who they call(G). "Hey, were's your combustion analyzer?" Don't have one? Take a hike. No O2 test? Now they know why the O2 test determines the fuel or air-rich side of the efficiency chart(G).

Heating systems are so reliable, consumers take their operation for granted. If cars are required to be inspected for safety annually by a licensed technician, why do fuel-burning appliances within the home get a free pass?

If our lawmakers and codes officials were worth a pint of beer, they'd enact legislation governing not just a requirement for the annual inspection, but a solid licensing/testing proceedure for the technicians. That'd give new meaning to the catch-phrase "leave no child behind". Instead, if they're from PA, they're more concerned with enacting legislation granting them an automatic 20K raise each and every year that has a built-in escalator clause to compensate for the cost of living.

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[Deleted User]

Dave, considering your recent video...

hosting experience, it seems clear that you're the man to be interviewed!

John R. Hall

Yup

Dave and/or any one of our panelists from the ISH-NA CO discussion would be a good interview. Maybe Jennifer can do a conference call.

Dave Yates (PAH)

Hey - Milne is down near her location

I hear Florida is warm in the winter - why not assemble the panel there? Get Scott to give up a few minutes at Disney World to grant an interview(G). Imagine the look on his face when Jennifer catches up and says "I was sent from The Wall!".

If Jennifer wants tightly time-lined video, we can provide same in an edited format. The Watts video was done without a script - off the cuff stuff. Some of the out-takes where I tied my tongue in knots got a tad blue, so you won't be seeing a bloopers edition!

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John R. Hall

Need Jacksonville spokesperson

The reporter wants to talk to someone in the Jacksonville market who represents our side of the story. I've sent out an e-mail to the locals and can use any other help from Wallies and friends in that area.

Time is ticking and we need to strike while the iron is hot.

Jim Davis_3

John,
I was out of town last week but one of our other instructors has been E-Mailing Jennifer and telling her the situation. We have no Certified CO Analysts in Jacksonville and have had little success in getting contractors in Florida interested at this time. Maybe we need to take up a collection and send Mark down there!

Mark Hunt

I could


use the tan!

I'll go, but we play by my rules.

I get control of the "edit" button.


Mark H

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John R. Hall

Mark

There's that saying from "Field of Dreams" -- "if you build it they will come."

Well, "if you do the story, it will appear in The News."

Geno_15

Home bought CO detectors

are cumulative, they're not so great, it takes time for them to accumulate enough CO to go off and they will go off after taking in small amounts of CO over 6 months. Now you have to try and find the cause, sigh, another great news story.

Matt Undy

It is very hard dealing wiht the press. If you give them hours of footage it won't say what you want because the people editing it down don't know or care about the truth. I'm not sure the way to fix this but I think it is basically to make sure the reporter unserstands but only give them acurate conscise information on camera.

Waht do they need to know...CO poisons slowly over time at low levels or quickly at high levels. The UL standard only tests for acute high level poisning, doesn't test for slow, low level poisining.


Any time I have been involved with the media they ahve never gotten anything complex. The advice I have gotten is develop a short few word message and keep repeating it. If you go in to the whole story on camrea they will exerpt something completely incorrect.

Matt