newest install

lchmb

In the midst of finishing a complete house install. Wide open space (sorry Ron Jr. had to throw that in) The homeowner built the house himself, plenty of space upstair's and in the cellar. Then he makes the boiler room 6x9 and puts the sewer cleanout, floor pump and water pump in it. Plenty of space, oh yea, can we put the super store there to...:( Had a total of 160 feet of baseboard, a modine (for the garage) and a kickspace heater.

Unknown

Wide open space ?

Looks more like a narrow , confined closet to me . Very nice work . On your tight installs , you ever consider using the Spirovent or the B and G air separator ? I just used one of each this past week and they do give you more room to play with the header piping . And I take it that the circs are on the returns because there wasn't enough height to get them on the supply ? Or do you find that they work as well on the return as they do on the supply ? Believe me , we've got hundreds of installs with them on the return and they perform great . I guess it depends on what they're connected to ?

Is there a code to have the walls fireproofed ? We run into that alot - new boiler room , no sheetrock , but we can't stop the work . Sometimes it makes the rocker's job a little harder , but what can we do ? Great work once again - even isolation valves around each circ . What's with the gage on the supply piping right above the boiler ?

lchmb

thought

Thought you'd get a kick out of that. The owner wanted the superstore in there to...didn't fit. As to the spirovent I am still working on those. My supervisor is now beginning to understand the need for them and I believe my next job will have one (I hope). As to the circ's on the return, my supervisor feel's the Burnham comes through with the circ there and we should keep them their. I personally prefer to pump away but don't have an issue with it so...The owner is sheetrocking the room today and yes even in NH it is required by code. The guage you see to the right of the supply is a pressure test being done, on all complete install's I pump the system to 45lbs and leave it for a day or two. Let's me know if I missed a leak without the water mess....Thank's for the kind words...Alway's nice to know it look's good to a pro..;)
BTW...which do you prefer? The spirovent or the B&G??

Unknown

I prefer

the B and G , EAS I think it's called . Here's the pic of the job we used it on . I like that you can screw the cap closed to pressure test the boiler . With the Spirovent you have to thread on 1/2 inch cap which they don't supply . And from what our shop guy says , it's about 20 bucks cheaper than the Spirovent . I also like the Taco Vortec but it seems that we can't get a supplier to stock them .

Try convincing your supervisor that not only does it keep most systems air free , pumping away from the expansion tank makes piping the boiler supply with the circs up there much easier . We used to install the circs on the returns , just like everyone else . When we switched to supply side circs around 96 or so , we couldn't believe the time saved by making an all copper return . Keep bringing the subject up , sooner or later he'll see the light .

lchmb

Thanks

I'll pass on the info. I know the salesman will go for it. He's loving all the install work were doing lately. As to the circ's, I have never had a problem with the Burnham on the return's and try to alway's build black iron feed and return if I can. Preference thing. Nice job on that one under the stairs!! My head would be dented if I did that one..:) Thanks for the info..The more knowledge the better we get!!

tommyoil

Nice!!!

Neat work in those tight spots. Two questions, 1) I dont see a LWCO. Is it hiding somewhere??? And 2) How are we supposed to open the swing out chamber door with the factory installed return in the way. I re-do the return on those boilers for service sake. I cant figure why they(Burnham) would pipe that return so you cant open the door. In this case, how will you ever get to the chamber (shy taking off the door). Seems like a P.I.T.A.

lchmb

LWCO

The LWCO is something that is not required by code here in NH and as such is a hard sell for homeowners (as firedragon will tell you we have no codes..). This gentleman was cutting as many corner's as he could and opted not to have it installed. As to the door, it will open although a P.I.T.A to do. With the hinge it just squeek's by. I generally offset with 45's to make it easier but didn't have any with me. The stock on my truck is about empty from 4 install's in two weeks. Really need to sit down and go through inventory!...Thanks

David Sutton_5

Burnham boilers

Frist, i must say you guys did a greatjoib on those boilers ,nothing like tring to fit 6 gallons into a 5 gallon bucket!! but you two make it look easy. the chamber door has been modified with a dubble swing hing to back away and swing out around that darn return pipe. but still dont know way the silly circ comes mounted on the return pipe?? oh well, great job see ya !!

D Logan Ireland Oil Co Inc

I find it hard to believe that in this day and age in our Hydronic heating industry with the knowledge available to us thru this website that your company could not sell this homeowner a low water cutoff.Wouldn't that be in his self interest to install a safety device. Try this next time on your installs,eliminate the flowchecks and install circulators with the check valves built in. Voila, you now have your extra money to install the low water cutoff. Please start pumping away and eliminate your future air problems. Maybe you don't get all the calls for air problems after the work is done but more than likely the homeowners oil company will. We have never had an air related problem after having installed spirovents.

lchmb

actually

I don't sell them, I install them. The salesman had put the LWCO in the bid. The customer removed it. As to air related issue's, I work for the oil supplier and have never had an air related issue with this piping arrangement on a Burnham boiler that I have installed. I have (after Ron Jr suggested) talked with the salesman and we will be installing the B&G air eliminator's in the future where space is an issue.....As to circ's with built in flow check's, I have installed many of them, in this case the customer wanted external flow check's as he had an issue with an IFC circ. Again not my call, I do what makes the customer happy..:)

Unknown

Written like a true gentleman

Although I agree , somewhat , that a LWCO should be on every boiler , I just keep reminding myself about the countless hundreds of thousands of boilers installed in my area alone which do not have one . Speaking to our servicemen , managers , anyone in the know , we have not heard of one hot water boiler exploding from the lack of a cutoff ( in my area ) . I would never suggest it does not happen , though . It just doesn't happen enough to warrant it being a mandatory item . I like the approach that Lchmb's company uses - explain to the customer the benefits of it and let them decide . Maybe even have some facts on hand of the number of boilers that exploded from the lack of a cutoff in the near past

Oh , Mr. Ireland , we priced out IFC pumps compared to regular pumps and flowvalves , and the only way we could offset the cost to buy a LWCO is on a 20 zone system .

Firedragon_4

First of all,

a compliment, nice job and not much to work with.

Stupid question (not), what is being done about ventilation air and combustion air? I can't really see anything for louvers or vents and don't want to see you and your boss up to your neck in lawyers, insurance adjusters and soot in about 6 months.

Just asking lchmb, you know me, your favorite code PITA!

lchmb

I'm smiling

I am glad someone (knew it would be you) would worry about my backside...:) If you look just to the left rear of the boiler I am bringing in combustion air. Thank's Firedragon for watching out for us!!

lchmb

Thanks Ron

Mellow_2

air

You can not be in this trade with out running into air problems.....To say, piping this way never gives you air problems means you do not repair them or return to bleed them....This is the way they have been piped for years and have always had air problems. You can let the cust. tell you how to do your job if you want but I hope most of us are better than that... I know I am. Good to know that some people only care about price and have no standards.......If we all did things the right ways the cust. could only have things done the right way......good thing we are scared that the guy down the street will under bid us, this keeps us doing it the wrong way.......YOUR WORK IS VERY NICE I AM NOT PICKING ON IT.......but hope to see you fight harder to change. I have installed five zones just like this and I wish someone stoped me... I will not do it again...I know this is a negetive post but if it will make someone think I will try anything...

lchmb

we all

We all have opinion's as to how thing's should be done. As to not servicing what I install, If I have any customer come back, even year's from now. I will in fact repair the issue free of charge. And yes, I would be informed of any call back issues... As to the customer telling me to do the job, they don't. In this case the gentleman did not want circ's with IFC's. I would not tell a customer his feeling's have no meaning. If they don't like a specific brand or part I don't use it. They are paying me for what they want. As to issue's with piping on the return, as I said, I have not had any issues WITH WHAT I HAVE INSTALLED!! I have seen issue's with other system's with both circs on the feed and return....And no I am not defensive on discussing this issue....:) And as to your comment of the guy down the road, I wish he would take more from me. I have install's booked out for the next 6 weeks straight...:( I'm tired..LOL BTW if it's the worst thing in the world why does Burnham put the circ on the return to start?

Unknown

Hey nice guy

Why are you anonymous ? Truth be told , we have had air problems in every spot we locate the circulator . Not many , but there's always a pesky air bound home every once in a while . Heres a job we did a few years ago - circs on the returns , and air free since the install . Just like thousands of other homes with the circs on the return . Believe me , I know by reading the serviceman card on the boiler before we rip it out .

D Logan Ireland Oil Co Inc

Oh Ron Jr, I was just trying to make a point that the integrity of the workmanship is in the hands of the installer not the owner. Tell me how the owner gets to pick and choose what integral fittings and equipment is needed to install a boiler in a safe manor. I realize that you can provide many options on a quote and based on those options you can agree on a final price.Let me ask you this,does the homeowner have technical knowledge of hydronic heat installtions.Did he ask for a relief valve. Did he ask for 12 ball valves to be installed. Did he demand that a Burnham boiler be installed when their are so many other higher quality boilers on the market. You are the expert not the homeowner. I am just making an observation based on past experience.

lchmb

Hi Ireland

Nice country I might add. In this case yes the gentleman did in fact have a long list of what he expected. He is an engineer. He did also demand a Burnham boiler, has one at his primary house and has had excellent success with it!! A point to be made is that alot of folk's come here, ask questions and when we get there they are prepared. I am not aruguing that a LWCO is not a valuable tool, but it is not yet required in this state and is only recommended. This gentleman asked for and recieved a complete break down on the estimate. When it was first quoted there was in fact 5 zones, he opted to remove one zone and do away with the LWCO. How could I or any company demand a customer do something that is not required by code?

Mellow_2

free

Why free???? You have to be worth something, Right? Hope you do not feel guilty about something........... YES the cust. can pick the prouducts they want BUT WE AS LICENCED PROS have a responsibility to do the job the best we know how, RIGHT? The cust. would want that, don't you think???? I had a cust. that did not like valves so we installed circs. This was good job to do but when doing one or the other they should be done corectly. It is very very busy now and we have no lack of work too. This should bring out the best in all of us. We can install systems and make sure they are right...(or install pumping away with a spyrovent before the circ) This circ will never have air in it, if the air is blead when installed.
As for burnham.........look at Dans book Pumping Away page 7,8,9,10. Easy packaging and habit took over. So we should let the shipper tell us how to pipe the boilers cause the circ fits better in the box on the return???????? The circ will move water in any sealed loop if it has water in it not air. The circs in the return have air in them that is a fact...

Unknown

What ?

Did the homeowner ask for a relief valve ? Did he ask for 12 ball valves ? What does one have to do with the other ? The relief valve has to be on there for safety and by every code or regulation in this country ( and they come with almost every new boiler anyway ) . The ball valves are an option , as well as the LWCO , in Lchmb's area of work . Do you not give your customers a choice of good , better , best ? And I don't know , call me funny this way , but wouldn't you want the customer to decide which brand boiler they want , after explaining to them which brands you recommend ? We often will install a boiler we do not usually use , if the customer so chooses .

Yes we are the experts , but it is our job to educate the homeowner about what is required , and what is optional , and what we think is best for their heating system - and most important - WHY we think it's best for them .

D Logan Ireland Oil Co Inc

to Glenn Stanton, This gentleman installer has a question concerning the location of the circulator when it comes from Burnham's factory on the return piping. Would you please enlighten us all. I am sure you can help us out on this as I believe many installers think Burnham puts it there for a good reason.

J.C.A._3

David,

The only reason the circs have been put on the returns, as far as I can/have seen in the last 20 years was to make shipping the boiler easier.The return ports are on a low point on the boiler, where the feeds are usually nearer the top. The less space it takes to crate a boiler, the more pennies saved for the maker and shipper. They can fit more square packages in a truck than something that is "not so square".

I happen to live in a home piped by one of the "Deadmen". All of the circulators were placed on the supply side of the boiler. In the coming weeks, the building is switching over from oil to gas with seperate boilers for each unit. I had no say in this decision and have made it known that the company installing the new heaters will not mess with the piping arrangements of the new boilers.(WITH the OWNERS permission! of course).

I was asked to do the replacements but like most of us....I'm 4-6 weeks out before even thinking about doing a big job like this. I will however be available for some teaching if the installer has any questions, again with the owners permission and constant pleading.

The "pumping away" method of piping took a big shot when the manufacturers started installing circs. on the return pipe. Everyone (back then) thought that was where they wanted it. Stuff occurs. Like most have stated, there are few problems associated with either method, as long as proper and practical piping methods are followed. I happen to prefer the pump away method for customer satisfaction reasons.

High pressure goes to low pressure. You can't change the law! However, the best solution depends on the arrangement of the installed piping in a retro-fit.Live and let live.
Or better yet....Learn and let LEARN. JMHO. Chris

kevin coppinger_4

I asked Glenn once...

they had put the circ on the return of the boiler ....and they heard about in BIG time from a lot of oil co's. It makes swap outs easier/faster for them w/ it on the return...the supply siders/pumping away guys do it the "proper" way and don't make a stink....kpc

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lchmb

feel guilty

Do I feel guilty of anything, no. Do I take pride in what install's I have done, You betcha. If any of my previous install's were to come back with a problem I would fix it. Why would I do it for free, because I take care of my customer's....nuff said...Have a nice day!!

Mellow_2

most air

stays small and can move in the system.....Ask the cust. at that job if the rooms are all the same temp. They should be .....The air can slow the flow down in the system and make the heat energy get off at the first stop or heat the first rooms on the zone. Sometimes people do not notice this untill it is fix....and all the rooms are even. The return is the worst place for the circ, the air moves to the circ and the circ can,t move air so the flow slows down. BB at 2gpm sucks..... I want 4gpm....(most times). Did you rip out the card or the boiler? The boiler looks new and probily still will be when it gets changed in a few years (air is bad for boilers). Good luck explaining the circs burning out every few years. Water cooled circs and air......JOB security.....This is just talk and I will stay anonomussssss as long as I can for objectivity. Objective third partys are the best sometimes.(wish I had one now)

Unknown

Trying to stay \" objective \"

is a very subjective thing , with some of the comments in this post nice guy .

There's no need to explain the circs burning out every few years because they are on the return , simply because it does not happen . We routine replace 50+ year old boilers , some with 3 piece pumps , a great many with wet rotor Tacos dated in the 80s and early 90s . Every boiler has these pumps located on the return . And , do you think any customer would stay with us if they had to replace their pumps ever few years ? Ridiculous .

And yes , I rip out the card with the boiler . Haven't taken out a few years old leaking boiler due solely to pumps on the return yet . Fascinating idea , but completely wrong .

D Logan Ireland Oil Co Inc

How did I not know this homeowner is an engineer.That says it all. I apoligize for anything I said if it offended you.Did you ever notice that engineers always tell you what they do. I think its to scare us in to thinking, Hey don't try to fool me I'm an engineer. The last engineer we did work for actually had a large model train set in his basement. I almost asked him if he worked for Amtrak. If the man of the family doesn't tell you he's an engineer his wife surely will.

David Sutton_5

Hey Chris

Whens the big moving day?? you know the one that puts you in my back yard so you can get a nice new Beaconmoble LOL oh well one can have hope see ya buddy

David Sutton
d.sutton@beaconmechanical.com

J.C.A._3

Sorry Dave....

My drive to the ocean is about 10 minutes. Unless you can improve on that.....I think I might like working there and teaching some new blood, but I can be to the boat in 9 minutes from the homestead, and to the beach in about 4. Middle Ma./Ct. border ain't even close! The sea has been my life for too long. If I can't be there quickly I'm lost. Chris

Robert O'Connor_6

Nice

Nice clean piping and layout. Valves both sides of circs and feeder too !

I wonder why Burnham ships the V8 with the return riser blocking the swinging door.

Regards

Robert

ME

David Sutton_5

Hey Chris

you don'y have a remodeled navy boat do you ??

David Sutton
d.sutton@beaconmechanical.com

Mellow_2

Objectivlyyyyyyy

Water cooled circs are used today on most systems. In a system, where is the lowest psi?....The bubbles of air will be the biggest at the point of low psi, Right? The impeller is the lowest psi.......fact.....What will stop air from the system from getting in the circ on the return? The water has air even after being blead.....fact.....The circ is moving the water with air tward it and when it gets to the circ it joins with more air from the system and stays in the circ until the circ stops.........This will kill most water cooled pumps BUT if you have a system with spots for the air to hide then the boiler runs longer to heat the house and the boiler dies first. Yes this can take years but why should that matter. This trade seems lazzy, we will keep the circs in the return because we do not have the wire to move them or not install air eliminaters cause they cost too much. Opinion is for custimers not tradesmen we should deal with fact and not take shortcuts. I am not trying to be negitive in my post I just can not see good reasons for doing things that way.

Unknown

Kevin, Tom and others

To address why the return pipe, pump and fittings are mounted on the V8 where they are has to do with proper flow through the boiler to help to ensure proper heat transfer. The pump continues to be mounted on the V8 on the return side in popular request from some of the largest installers in the field. It may have been much easier to simply offset the return piping, but in doing that a swing arm will be created that will inevitably loosen up during shipment from Lancaster, PA to wherever you happen to be. This is a hard lesson that has already been learned by some other boiler manufacturers.

The location of the return piping does NOT interfere with the ability to open the swing door or to access the combustion area because we equip the swing door with an offset pivoting hinge called an "articulating hinge". To make the process of opening and closing the door even simpler, we recently changed the right side security bolt to a stud, nut and washer and notched the right side of the swing door to index with the stud.

As far as "pumping away" goes, I agree that it is a better way. That is why we offer an alternative way of piping the boiler if the return side pump is used. This involves moving the expansion tank to the return side of the system and we show this piping arrangement in the I&O manual. By the way Tom and Ron, nice installation and thanks for using Burnham products. Hope this helps.

Glenn Stanton

Burnham Hydronics