replacing our old boiler in 1900 built house...

arlene brown

Just found your site. Super helpful, but it did raise some questions for us...

Our boiler broke, and a reputable firm spec'd us the Weil-McLain GB 100-10. This unit has a 163 I-B-R rating. (Whatever that is!) But we did the heat loss calculation based on the worksheet formula provided by W-M, and our heat loss values were 89,000 up to 103,000 (based on the variables on the worksheet, and our house is a 1906 model with 4800 sq. ft.). Unless we're mistaken, this indicates we need a boiler with an I-B-R rating of no less than 103 MBH.

So, do we really need a unit with an I-B-R rating of 163 MBH? In addition, they tried to steer us away from higher efficiency units due to the cost. Weil-McLain makes a high efficiency unit with 123 MBH that more closely matches our needs (based on the Weil-McLain worksheets).

Should we go with a high efficiency boiler that more closely matches our heat loss calculations? Or should we stick with what has been proposed?

Any help is appreciated. Thanks!
Arlene B.

Bill Nye_2

A second opinion

........ wouldn't hurt. Try the find a contractor area on this site and type in your zip code.

Sometimes very well intentioned people think they are saving you money but it could cost more over the life time of the new boiler.

In an old house better insulation and new windows and doors can help save on operating costs.

Do you have steam or hot water? Radiators or baseboard heat?

lchmb

ok

My first question would be did this company do a heat loss calc or simply quote you a boiler based on a one for one swap? Did they give you a breakdown on the quote itself? Have you by any chance recieved other estimates? On an investment of this size I would get someone to come in who will do a complete heatloss and a complete breakdown of what will be done...IMHO

arlene brown

We have baseboard radiators..though there are a few places in the house that didn't get anything at all, including a small bathroom! (Chilly!) As far as the other question, I think the guy felt sorry for us here all walking around in our winter coats with 25 degree weather coming overnight tonight, and he was just thinking of swapping something out for us. We live in a University town that does a lot of building, and our house is small potatoes compared to the other new construction this firm does...my husband asked him about his heat loss calculations, and he just said that he doesn't use the same one as Weil-McLain. But he didn't say what he does use, either. He did email us and say that the bigger boiler took into account that he considers our house pretty "loose", i.e., drafty, which it is. We've only got new (brand-new) windows in our furnished attic, and the rest of the house has a hodge-podge of poorly fitted storms, some screens instead of storms, and other than that, single-pane glass. We hope to replace more windows next year, and get new siding put on as well.
This guy was originally going to get started tomorrow, but he's driving up to Michigan City to get the smaller boiler we figured we need. We were just freaking out a bit that how could we know more than him? Just second-guessing ourselves, I guess. Another contractor gave us a bid for a different model, but he is primarily a plumber, and is "getting into" heating and a/c. They made the effort to literallly measure the entire house though. They didn't mention heat calcs to us, and their bid was comparable. It's pricey for sure. Our first contractor never got back with us at all, and the other guy we called called us back to say that they weren't go to bid on the job. So we've been without heat for 8 days. :-P Wish we would have found you guys sooner! We are in Champaign, IL.

Does this answer all your queries?

thanks!

Arlene

oil-2-4-6-gas

.

so you have a person to do the job and he's picking up the equipment ---whats the problem--

lchmb

yes

And you still haven't answered yourself. Just the discussion you are having is saying you do not feel comfortable with what you have for information so far. I would recommend clicking on the "find a pro" link here and getting more information. If it were me, I would want a heat loss calculation done to start. From there I would request in writing all part's that will be addressed (I.E circulator's, flow check's, auto feeder) and a in writing guarantee that your unit will meet all codes when complete....But that's just me....:)

arlene brown

OK. We'll get more specifics. Thanks for all your help!! This is an excellent place to find objective help.

Arlene

Unknown

Try this site, Arlene

http://slantfin.com/he2/


Noel

Plumbob

If you can do heat loss calculations, you probably have the technical expertise to determine ACTUAL heat lead.

If your gas bill gives the number of degree-days for the billing period (ours does), or if you can get the degree-day information another way, divide the BTU consumed in a winter billing period (1 therm = 100,000 BTU) by the number of degree-days in the period. Multiply that by the degree-days in a design day (typical coldest day in your area, maybe 85 degree-days corrsponding to -20F) and divide by 24 (the number of hrs in a day) to get the BTU/hr for the size boiler you need, with some leeway since that your new boiler will be more efficient than your current one.

Many contractors like to hugely oversize boilers just for the **** of it (I imagine them sitting with friends over beers and yucking it up about how big a boiler he was able to sell the last sucker). I bet your contractor didn't do any calculation at all and is just making up numbers. I bet your estimate is better than his but still on the high side. Don't oversize your boiler! And more efficient is good; energy costs aren't going to go down any time soon.

Chris_41

Weil-Mclain Ultra installed

Today the company we (Arlene & I) hired installed a Weil-Mclain Ultra 155. It is about one-third the size of our last boiler. It looks way too small to heat our 4800 sq. ft. house. I asked the sales rep who dropped by to check on the work if he thought it was too small (this is the guy who recommended the Ultra 230), and he said that as long as we install new windows (we will next spring) we'll be okay. Upon inspecting the attic sapce, they recommended more insulation. We just installed a new roof and siding + windows on the 3rd floor and the attic space is "breezy" due to the proper ventilation.

In the next day or so we will find out if this little Ultra 155 can cut it.

Chris B.

Dave_16

Old house Ultra 155

You're in the same situation we were in a couple weeks ago; our house was built in 1838, but has had all new windows installed as well as new insulated siding on top of the original siding. No contractors we had in did complete measurements for heat loss calcs, and several just looked at the old, inefficient boiler that we were replacing and went with the same BTU's. I did all the calcs and was coming up with something around 120MBH (also based on new attic insulation, which I still haven't done!). One contractor recommended the Ultra 155, because it changes (modulates) its output based on demand - so as long as your demand isn't over 155MBH, it's actual output will vary downward to as little as, I think, 31MBH.
So far, it's been great. With cold weather just now settling in, the boiler is running great and cycling nicely. One major upgrade we did at the same time, though, was zoning of our 1st and 2nd floors and new addition with separate zone valves and new thermostats. This also helps the demand on the boiler, as all three zones rarely call for heat simultaneously or for the same duration. Our entire house is now at the same temperature and the thermostat programs cool it down a bit at night and when we are away, to save money. It's really nice.
Also, one reason the Weil-McLain Ultra's are so small is because they employ a fairly advanced cast aluminum heat exchanger. Aluminum heats up and cools down much faster than steel-based alloys and transfers heat with better efficiency; all this requires less exchanger surface area and thus results in a smaller boiler. As a Ph.D. engineer with some experience in high-efficiency heat transfer, I can vouch for this concept (although not for this particular design, or how well they pulled it off - time will tell).

Good luck,

Dave

Steve Rockwell_3

Another Satisfied Ultra Customer

That would be me.

I've been looking at replacing the 360,000 BTU, 40+ year old monster in our basement for three years. After much research, and a lot learned from people on this site, I too selected an Ultra 155 for our 1920's vintage 4000 square foot house in West Michigan.

It was installed last week, and I am simply amazed at the changes:

- I can no longer hear the gas meter spinning around from the floor above when the boiler is operating.

- Our living room, which was always cold regardless of thermostat settings, is now very comfortable.

- The wide swings in temperature between rooms are completely gone.

- The old boiler continuously took heated air from the house and sent it outside via a 10" flue, even when it was not operating. Cold replacement air came in through cracks in windows and doors, making the house feel drafty and cold. Our house is no longer drafty with the Ultra, with no other changes made.

- And thanks to the Plus 40 indirect water we had installed along with it, we now have what seems to be an unlimited supply of hot water, heated much more efficiently than with our old standard 50 gallon gas fired water heater.

This after just a week after installation. Cannot wait to get the first gas bill.

Constantin

You might get more than a bill...

... the heating company may show up to verify you're not cheating and bypassing the gas meter. Someone here posted a similar story after righting a steam system saved the consumer something on the order of 80% fuel.

I'm glad your home is comfortable now. While I'm still a believer in oil heat due to our location (Boston, MA), for most parts of the country, natural gas and a condensing, modulating boiler make the most sense for energy efficient and consistent heat.

Dave_16

Interestingly....

...there are conversion kits for the Ultra boilers to run off propane, although they don't seem to advertise this much. Too bad you can't do fuel oil, too.

Steve Rockwell_3

I hope you're right

I will be happy to give them a guided tour of my boiler room if my bill drops by that much, Constantin.

Oil heat is used in some areas here, but gas seems to be the lower cost fuel at this point. Some, like Steve Ebels, like the Vitola for its ability to use either fuel, given the correct burner (among other reasons). Didn't I read that the Vitola is what you have selected for your house?

Constantin

Yup, have a Vitola...

... she's been purring away in the basement for a while now. Our oil tanks (550 Gal total) have depleted from 7/8 to about 1/2 now... to be expected, given that the house still has more holes than a colander, and bigger ones too!

On the other hand, it keeps the boys warm and hopefully, they'll work all the harder for it. Besides, in a week or two, the exterior work will be largely done, then it's party time inside with the closed-cell foam, etc. That alone should stop most of the leaks and give Ms. Vitola more of a break. Nonetheless, it is darn impressive how warm a mere 115kBTU boiler can keep the house under those conditions... downright toasty in the basement!

I'm sure you'd love to show the gas company why your gas consumption suddenly plummeted... and I hope that you'll come close to the 80% mentioned for the abused steam system... unlikely, though... 25-40% is my armchair, pass-the-peanuts, estimate. Should pay for itself in no time though, so congrats on living in a comfortable, efficienctly heated space!

As for the gas version of the Vitola, I consider that a insurance policy at best. The AFUE on the oil version is a respectable 86.7% while its gas bretheren barely makes it past 83%. Granted, low return water temps like with radiant systems allow you add up to 3% in combustion efficiency with a Vitola but still...

Speaking of potential homeowner misdeeds, if a gas conversion were in the cards, I'd seriously consider a grey-import of the VitolaPlus HX and other sundry items from the FRG to get a Vitodens performer at, perhaps, a lower price than a complete rip-out and replacement. I can read the manuals, even if they're in German... ;-)