European Technology

Paul Rohrs

I love following all of the threads on the troubleshooting of different systems. Zoning by circulator, zone-valve, reset, radiators, fintube, pretty much every "medium" of heating in the US. It got me to thinking about our counterparts overseas. What are they experiencing over there? Is this going to be an "Apples to Oranges" comparison?

In following all of the new advances with low-mass modulating and condensing boilers, we are moving faster and faster towards European type systems. (Fine by me.)

I would love to follow the European version of "The Wall" for a day to hear their troubleshooting stories, homeowner complaints and concerns, etc. Is it a mirror image of us here in the USA with converting old systems to new? Same types of growing pains of technology progressing faster than the skil levels of SOME (Not All) heating technicians?

Would this also then be an indicator of what problems or to rephrase, what "issues" we will see in the future?

Love to hear from the manufacturers on this as well.

Regards,

PR

Jimmy Gillies

Paul.

There is no other 'Wall' like this in the whole World, the stuff you guys post here is always very informative & great fun. Also the work Dan does for us all is wonderfull.
The UK sites I visit mostly cover regulations/problems and are not as much fun.
As for Euro systems have a look at Danfoss, they are one of the most respected Euro companies.
Hope that is of some help?
Regards.
Jimmy Gillies Scotland.

Fred Harwood

Euro heating stuff

One thing to keep in mind when comparing US and Euro heating technology and practice is their much higher costs (mostly taxes) of energy. As fuel costs rise, more technology helps to lower that cost, but at the expense of higher capital costs, levels of expertise, and maintenance and mandated upgrades. My experience there has been mostly in southern Switzerland and sourther Austria, both of which use a lot of heating oil in very technical setups. Especially in rural southern Austria one still finds oil along with those lovely ceramic woodstoves that add more than gentle warmth to hospitality.

Constantin

Interesting...

When I compared my fathers oil prices to mine (Bonn, Germany vs. Boston, MA) we came to the conclusion that his #2 only cost about 10% more than mine on a per liter basis. Analysis done by other Wallies showed a lower net price in Amsterdam per barge of oil than for Houston, TX.

As such, I doubt there is a great heating fuel price difference between here and most parts of Europe. However, their vs. our gasoline and diesel prices are a different story!

I happen to think that there is more to the efficiency of European heating appliances than just the price of energy: It's an attitude towards the preservation of the environment, long-term views, etc. that embolden the Europeans to spend the big bucks to install very efficient heating systems.

Why else have laws on the books as they do in Germany that not only mandate yearly boiler inspections but also require minimum efficiency levels or the boiler gets red-tagged. Over in the USA, the only boilers that get tagged are the ones that are about to kill their owners...

DaveGateway

High taxes

are probably on vehicle fuels: a sin tax, while heating is more of a nessesity. I suppose they burn more K-1 then high sulphur #2 oil. Some of Viessman's condensing oil fired boilers on their international web site are fantastic. I don't see why they are not offered here now and specified to run K-1. With the price of heating oil and the increase use of bio-fuel, it would seem that this would a perfect time to bring this technology to the US. Does anyone know what is the most used heating oil in Europe? Some variant of K-1 or K-2?

Constantin

Low Sulfur Fuels are the norm in the EU...

...it's been mandated by the folks in Brussels. Viessmann has certified their condensing stuff for oil with a sulfur contamination of up to 500ppm. However, US fuel oil is allowed to have up to 1,700 PPM of sulfur, so that's a no-go unless you have a local source of low-sulfur oil hanging around.

Given the high cost of removing sulfur and the lack of a worldwide market for the stuff (one sulfur dump in Canada is visible from space and the cost to move the stuff to a port exceeds the price one gets on the world market) I can see why US refineries are resisting making additional investments to reduce sulfur content.

Adding to the sulfur plight is the fact that a lot of the sweet oil deposits are now waning, which means that more sour oil will have to be processed longer in the future to meet current emissions standards, which naturally translates into even higher prices. Yay!

Like you, I am very interested to see what'll happen with bio-fuel over the next couple of years. It won't be long before rape-seed, canola, etc. oils will become competitive for diesel and heating oil usage. The current users seem to rely mainly on waste oil (french-fries, et. al), which is not sustainable on a large scale. But we'll see... after all, it's always amazing to see how efficient the market is eventually at coming up with solutions to problems.

Fred Harwood

Euro heating oil cost

Don't know if this helps much, but today's heating oil price near Klagenfurt, Austria, was the equivalent of $2.65 a gallon. Last week, when prices were higher than today, in western Massachusetts I paid $1.70. That's a $0.95 difference, all else equal, which may not be the case. Somehow, the retail price of heating oil in Austria seems to be much more than here, and that significant price differential would seem to foster greater efficiency regulation, effort, and expense there.

Constantin

Well...

Perhaps Austria has much higher heating oil taxes than the rest of the EU? Or is it that Austria is so landlocked that oil prices there are higher?

IIRC, we have similar discrepancies in the US if you compare heating oil prices from state to state. Areas like the NE (where there is a lot of competition) will have lower prices than "dry" areas within. I can't blame the refiners either, considering what you can get for diesel vs. heating oil.

As an example, I looked up the current heating oil prices in Germany. In France, the price of heating oil is not much higher, at about EU0.52/l, according to the French government's statistical web-site.

There is a German company by the name of esyoil that does oil deliveries/scheduling/pricing via the internet. Their alleged all-inclusive price for a 1000l delivery (roughly 275 Gallons) is USD2.28/Gallon while a 2000l delivery drops down another 3 percent. Another company in Germany, AVIA, offers prices that are about 10 cents/gallon higher (EU0.49/l vs. EU 0.46/l).

Most interestingly, these companies allow you to pool with friends and neighbors in a 2mile radius. That is, you can create your own oil-buying pool. Granted, the extra stops cost something, but this is a concept that US consumers have not explored yet, it seems.

And, we all have experience with the stated prices of oil on company web-sites vs. actual prices from local dealers. In my experience, if you call around or join a competitive automatic-fill plan, you can beat any published internet price.

To recapitulate, it appears that the current price for heating oil in Germany and France is not much higher than it is in the US. The current, higher difference can be easily explained by exchange rate fluctuations.

However, the bigger take-away in my mind is that the heating oil pricing differences are not nearly as pronounced as the price differences on the gasoline and Diesel side, yet the Germans, French, etc. still insist on installing high-$$$, very efficient heating plants.

IMHO, you're dealing with a different mindset over there, where folks look at life-cycle costs, not just the initial purchase price. As a result, a lot of technology like radiant cooling, etc. will be developed, tested, etc. over there a long time before we'll ever see it on these shores. A pity, really.

Paul Pollets

#2 in Seattle

is going for $2.29 per gal. Not to much less than the Euro price. And more than the price of 92 octane high test gas. Go figure. Tell me it costs more to refine #2 than 92 octane unleaded....

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Jason Horner

> #2 is going for $2.29 per gal. Not to much less than

> the Euro price. And more than the price of 92

> octane high test gas. Go figure. Tell me it costs

> more to refine #2 than 92 octane

> unleaded....

>


There's that funny thing the oil companies call supply and demand again. Betcha #2 is cheaper in the summer vs. winter ;-)