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Guard Dog 24v LWCO for HW Boiler.?
bob elmore
Member Posts: 41
robert o connor you are NOT the only one with guard dog
failures. I'am a distribitor in mid west we've had
plenty with no explaination from mcdonnel miller.
anyone else?
failures. I'am a distribitor in mid west we've had
plenty with no explaination from mcdonnel miller.
anyone else?
0
Comments
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Guard Dog 24v LWCO for water boiler?
Has anyone else been experiencing failures of these probe type LWCO's? We got four failures in the last month,,As usual, our distributor says "Were the only ones"..Robert O'Connor/NJ0 -
no you're not
the only one & we've seen a number of these fail too. Our new PA code requires a LWC on boiler installations now (one of the few good things I can say about this new code, which has a number of things in it that seem to have been written by someone smoking crack!)& I'd like to find a reliable LWC for water boilers.
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Reliable .. LWC/o
what about the 63 M, then .....hey .. i think the Doggys are ... made in Chinka !0 -
Failing
How are these LWC's failing ? they do not shut off the boiler, or they do not allow it to come on with water in the system? Have a few guard dogs out there may 10/12. have started useing the Safeguard both 24 volt and 120 volt. thanks J.Lockard0 -
24v LWCO's
Robert,
I too have seen several of these that would not function consistently. I would suspect that it may have something to do with being wired to the boiler transformer and that there just may not be enough current to go around. Another reason may have to do with the probe being too close to the back side of the tee.
It is our stance as a manufacturer that the installer always utilize a 120v LWCO instead of the 24v models. The primary reasoning for this has to do with the abilities of the person wiring it into the boiler harness to understand the boiler circuitry. A 120v model keeps the person doing the wiring away from the boiler harness and is easier to understand the circuitry. Here is a copy of the next page that will appear in all of our Installation Manuals very shortly and should make installing these a more consistent procedure. As far as I know, we are the first company to address this in their manuals and the effort was partially at my request. Hope this helps.
Glenn Stanton
Burnham Hydronics0 -
> Has anyone else been experiencing failures of
> these probe type LWCO's? We got four failures in
> the last month,,As usual, our distributor says
> "Were the only ones"..Robert O'Connor/NJ
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24 VAC LWCO
Slant/Fin also suggests NOT USING 24 volt low water cut offs on our boilers. Only use line voltage LWCOs and wire them in series with the wiring feeding the boiler.
Do not alter the UL listed wiring on the boiler in any way.
Our reasoning is exactly the same as Burnham's, so I won't repeat what Glenn said so well.
Noel Murdough
Slant/Fin Corp.0 -
A question for the MAN
While in basements I wonder about things sometimes:)Any of you ever consider a OEM installed LWCO on packaged boilers?Seems like a no brainer to me.
cheese0 -
Ureka!
Cheese rules!
If not packaged, why not as an accessory? With your buying power, they'd be less expensive & you could dictate how they're built.
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Installed one 24 volt
and only one many moons ago. I didnt fancy hacking into the wiring harness to make the connections. Was a PITA and voided warranty by doing so besides (as I later found out). Not the easiest thing to do the first time. Fortunately so far so good. Since then... its one ten (between stair switch and boiler).0 -
Already done
You can order with or without, same as the circulator, controls, and oil burners.
The LWCO still will be mounted in the piping above the boiler by the installer, per local codes.
Have it your way. Talk to your supplier.
Noel0 -
Right on Cheese
Dan had a question a while back about circulators coming with the boilers and not being used. I suggested replacing the circulator as an accessory with a LWCO with a dedicated point of install to prevent the many problems they present. That way it would be factory wired and installed in a dedicated well of some sort.
Part of the problem with LWCO's is they use a potential of resistance to ground through the water and that can sometimes be fooled especially if the probe is to close to metal surfaces.0 -
Cheese
Due to the fact that the International Code requiring LWCO's on all Hot Water boilers has not been adopted by all states or localities at this time, you will probably not see LWCO's as an OEM device "in the boiler". Pennsylvania has become the latest state to adopt it and numerous questions have come in regarding their use, wiring and piping requirements. As Noel stated, it will still have to be installed in the piping. The page I posted above shows all of that quite well. Hope this helps.
Glenn0 -
LWCO..
So it seems, these 24v jobs are crap. By general concences it appears the 110v ones are better? We are 4 out of 21 (in 1 month, all on FHW boilers..) there has to be more accountability on the manufacturers behalf. I just can't keep sending people back on call backs. Maybe I'll juryrig an old 67 up, for reliability purposes and see if any of the inspectors notice...he he ...Robert O'Connor/NJ0 -
I use Mcdonald Miller 120 volt only. I have put in hundreds over the years and only had one failure.
I prefere this over the 24 volt because it kills the power to the burner not cancelling the relay
The failure was a bad probe not the control itself.0 -
Rules and Regulations!
Who needs em?
Being a resident and contractor in PA myself ...........I openly and excitedly WAS happy to see the IRC come to the state.Unfortunately my sentiments are not shared by many local municipalaties.The code has some interesting enforcements and can be interrpruted with many different visions.Meaning I cannot get a straight answer out of anyone wether or not it i being enforced.
As far as a MAN offering a LWCO on a packaged boiler.......IMO it should just be done!Code or not.Just as a limit control.Screwed in,fastened and prewired.Plain and simple.Gives the HO a safer job.
cheese0 -
HYDROLEVEL 110 SAME AS GD24V
I HAVE SEEN A NUMBER OF THESE CONTROLS FAIL. SOME LEAK THRU THE THREAD ,BUT IF THE BOILER GETS HOT THEN YOU TIGHTEN BY HAND AGAIN THAT SEEMS TO STOP IT.0 -
HYDROLEVEL 110 SAME AS GD24V
I HAVE SEEN A NUMBER OF THESE CONTROLS FAIL. SOME LEAK THRU THE THREAD ,BUT IF THE BOILER GETS HOT THEN YOU TIGHTEN BY HAND AGAIN THAT SEEMS TO STOP IT.0 -
HYDROLEVEL 110 SAME AS GD24V
I HAVE SEEN A NUMBER OF THESE CONTROLS FAIL. SOME LEAK THRU THE THREAD ,BUT IF THE BOILER GETS HOT THEN YOU TIGHTEN BY HAND AGAIN THAT SEEMS TO STOP IT.0 -
HYDROLEVEL 110 SAME AS GD24V
I HAVE SEEN A NUMBER OF THESE CONTROLS FAIL. SOME LEAK THRU THE THREAD ,BUT IF THE BOILER GETS HOT THEN YOU TIGHTEN BY HAND AGAIN THAT SEEMS TO STOP IT.0 -
Callback ratios are gonna get worse
We've been installing the Taco series on every boiler for a few years and had plenty of failures . Almost all of the callbacks are for the boiler not firing - with water in the system . It doesn't matter where the sesitivity dial is on the callbacks . I'll find out tomorrow how many actually have failed on us - it's going to be an interesting winter .0 -
RB 120 is the control part number. Mcdonald Miller brand. This is not a sales pitch for them but one bad out of hundreds over the past three or four years is damn good to me. It is the only one we use. I have seen the Safegaurd leak many times!
Sorry Hydrolevel.0 -
Problems?
I have read the messages in this thread and have the following questions & comments.
1. Robert O'Conner mentions 'we got four failures the last month'but does not describe the failures. Perhaps he provide some details of the types of failures and under what circumstances. Would also be interesting to know what control 'failed' and what control it was replaced with and how that control is working.
2. Dave Yates mentions 'we've seen anumber of these fail also' and also mentions 'I'd like to find a reliable LWC for water boilers'. Again, perhaps details could be provided including which control 'failed' and what control was used as a replacment. Also would ask what he would consider a 'reliable' LWC.
3. Glenn Stanton mentions 'I have seen several of these that would not function consistently' and provides some thoughts such as being wired tot he boiler transformer or the probe being too close to the tee. Again, I would ask for details of the 'failure' and what was done.
4. Bob Elemore mentions 'I am a distributor in mid west we've had plenty with no explanation from McDonnell Miller'. Again I would ask for details of the 'failures' and ask if he has contacted McDonnell & Miller to discuss.
5. Jim Lockard mentions 'Have a few guard dogs out there may 10/12. have started using the Safeguard...' Did you switch because you were having problems and what kind of problems. And are you having problems with the Safeguard controls.
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Problems - Answers
Gentlemen,
Lots of statments regarding 'failures' of controls but no description of the 'failures' and what was done to correct. Perhaps everyone could provide some details.
I am concerned by the statment by Bob Elemore that he is distributor in the mdiwest and has had no explantion from McDonnell & Miller. Perhaps Bob could tell us if he has talked to someone, either a Rep or factory person.
Greg Roder
Product Specialist
McDonnell & Miller
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dead short
& that, in turn, kills the transformer, which then shuts down the boiler, so you can't say they don't work! I would prefer they react to a low water condition instead of simply fragging the circuits. Tends to fry the first replacement transformer too.
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I've had them
fail right out of the box at least 5 times in the past year . We test each one on initial fill up of the new boiler .
Most of the failures I've had sensed low water when a low water situtaion was not present .
One had the red low water indicator light on , but the burner still ran . Since we were coming back the next day , we left it as is . Wouldn't you know it , the system shut down early the next morning with water in the boiler .
I had one that sensed water in the boiler when there was not a drop in there .
These were all Taco line voltage LWCOs .0 -
guard dog
greg roder
no, I have not had any reply from our rep about
guard dog failure. I will call him wed. we've returned
2 or 3.0 -
I'm with Glenn
120v LWCO's here. Nothing else.
Mark H
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Greg...
Describing the failures?? How many things can go wrong with it? So far they either work, and then give us that warm & fuzzy feeling until a call back of, "they don't work". Or they don't work right out of the box, or they go poof!, on initial power up, or they leak. Greg, maybe you can provide detailed schematics for specific equipment (mine would be the WM CGi's) Now I know why I try and stay away from residential stuff...Robert O'Connor/NJ0
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