H/O needs help- earn TommyBuck$!

Bucky_2

Hi guys, I had a steamfitter do my NBP, I did tubing and controls. Now I've fired up the system and have a problem. I need help- I realize that this place isn't for homeowners, so I pledge a donation to Tommyoil for the help I receive here. Last week I posted a question and the answer ended up being 'do nothing' so I put a couple bricks in the wall. This time, I'll make a more substantial contribution....is anyone up for that?!?!?

Anyhow, It's a full P/S system, two high-temp zones for rads and DHW, and a packaged Weil-Mclain injection system for the radiant zone. Two zones of two loops each (approx 220ft. of 3/8" Qualpex per loop). Anyhow, I can't get much more than .5 gal/minute through each of the two loops I can run now (addition isn't ready for heat yet). I've a feeling I screwed up my radiant loop pump (Taco 012-F4) by deadheading. I didn't know how touchy the 4-wire actuators are- push them down just a little too much, and the end switch never opens, leaving a call for heat, which makes the loop pump run with no actuators open.

The pump now makes a fair amount of noise, and my flow control valves show .5 GPM. They're all the way open, as are the manifold valves on the supply side. (I tried with the actuators detached and the valves open, and still only the low flow, so the actuators are absolved). The loops are OK- I peg the flow meters when hooked up to a hoseline for purging. I have a pressure gauge on the return manifold, and show anywhere from 10 to 18 PSI, depending on the intensity of the injection pump and whether the boiler pump is on.

Anyway, I suspect I screwed up my 012. But the fact that it still gives me some flow makes me unsure (I would think if I hosed it it would just be dead).

So, should I get a new cartridge for my 012? Is that something I could probably handle myself? Is there something else that could be my problem?

Thanks in advance for the help for both me and Tommy!

Murph'_5

did you check

.

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hr

Are you saying

the 0012 is JUST driving 4 loops of 3/8" tube at 220 feet per loop?

If so 220 feet of 3/8" flowing .5 gpm presents about 9 feet of head. So the pump spec for 4 loops should be 2 GPM at 9'

At 12" oc 3/8" flowing .5 gpm you should get around 24 btu/ sq. ft.

All this data is from the RPA RadPad. They also suggest a max loop length of 200 feet for 3/8 and .3 gpm flow.

Not sure why you are trying for more than .5 gpm through those 3/8" loops??

If all the above is correct, sounds like you are way over pumped?? A 006 or 007 should get you through the nite

Or a Grundfos 15-58

hot rod

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Tim Doran

Pressure variations

The pressure at the return manifold varies between 10 and 18 psi depending on the injection rate and weather or not the boiler pump is running????? P/S piping is designed to provide hydraulic isolation if done correctly which means that this should not happen and it also means that something is piped wrong. Can you post pictures?

Tim D.

Bucky_2

Wow, HR, thanks for jogging my memory and making me re-check all my specs. I had two designs drawn up- one by the 'free' internet company that everyone speaks so warmly of :-), and one by a radiant consultant from MA. (Jim Patterson of comfort-experts). Seems like I implemented Jim's design but was remembering the other design's flow rates and temps. I'll have to get back to Jim as I can't find his specs anywhere.

So it sounds like I may be OK as is- I haven't insulated yet (making sure everything is OK first) and haven't gotten any results. Once I think everything is OK I'll insulate my joist bays and wait for results.

The pump was part of the package- yep, I think it's too much, but I'm still confused as to why the flow is so low...at 9' of head on the 012 curve, I should be pushing the tubing to its limits.....

Bucky_2

Thanks Tim. Here's the pix. Actually the boiler pump may not be directly affecting the pressure. Now when I think about it, what I saw was the injection loop pumping, then the radiator zone came calling for heat, and started the boiler pump. This brought the return temp in the loop down below min, so the 361 shut off the injection pump, resulting in my pressure drop. But I will do some more observing to make sure this is the scenario that has me spooked. I haven't tidied everything up yet- but I will!

Weezbo

hello *~/:)

i have an idea that 125' loops are sufficent for 3/8th's" thats me.i also really belive constant cirulation of low water temps is quite satisfactory..right now i have three loops of 3/8th's on a single three port header,the water temp going in is 72 the room temp is 68 and hey i'm happy...it is about 15 20 below 0?atilde;F at the momment.there are certainly other variables in my favor however,... i think the 220 foot runs you have will work, there are some small circ pumps like 004 006 1/2" bronze sweat, small grunfoss once ramped can do all youd want them to do to circ water through the lines, if they are individual zones this is something i dont know. if each zone has different heat losses i wouldnt be of much help however there is a guy name Tim at wirsbo who is up on these small zones etc who will crunch numbers and is very savey at it. i am of the opinion at this momment that the recirulating pump you have chosen is a shade over the size of recirulator you actually need. ....oops i just looked at the picture...uh...that injection loop lash up is from Weil Mclain hmmm.....well,id close the injection return down to whatlooks like about 3/4 closed,take the big pump out of the equasion altogether down size it to like the same size as the injection pump...i think the controller will ramp things up and down from there...it might like the boiler pressure up to 20 psi.....with the smaller recirc..OOPS OH SH@#&*! i just looked at it again, forget what i said about closing thereturn Down to 75% OPEN the return!! i cant belive i am so blind..i am getting a little older and my Glasses are two faced ) they lie to me right to my face!

Bill_39

have your steamfitter look

at the taco instructions on how to mount a circulator.

Mark Eatherton1

According to Siggy...

I ran this question by Siegenthalers software, and it said you should be seeing a little over .5 GPM per tube in a 4 tube array. As for the noise, its probably air and will work its way out. The 00 series of pumps are some amazingly tough pumps. I had a 007 that had been dead headed for 3 years that worked just fine when I open the offending valves.

ME

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DanHolohan

You're welcome.

HH is for homeowners and for everyone else. Tnanks for being a member of the community, and for helping out.

Bucky_2

Thanks everyone for your replies- they are greatly appreciated. So far it looks like I have another 'everything will be OK' situation. The output at 120F is about what I expected. The unused P/S pair above the MegaStor will be for a fancoil on my Spacepak (when I can afford it) to make up the expected shortage on colder days in the addition. I'll commence insulating the joist bays and hopefully soon will have comfort in the existing kitchen! I wish the 361 had one more sensor input so I could measure delta-t on my loops, to judge whether my flow is too slow, too fast, or just right. I guess I'll ind a clamp-on sensor for pex. Anyone know of a good one?

Bill- the taco instructions say 'Circulator must be mounted with the motor in a horizontal position. It may be mounted vertically with the motor up, provided that the system pressure is at least 20 psi (138 kPa).' I have no idea what they mean my 'motor up', but this is exactly what Weil/Mclain did with the injection pump (vertical pumping downward). Are we both wrong?

And in honor of you great wallies, another hundred samolians will be shipped across the Delaware River tomorrow to Tommyoil!!!!

And just for kicks, I have attached a 'before' picture of what my local reputable heating company installers left me with. That, of course, was before I read 'pumping away' and hooked up with the fitter. I mentioned p/s to these original installers...they had never heard of it. How many problems can YOU find with this install?!??! p.p.s. I told these guys I would be doing a radiant zone and leave me room to tie it in- the caps on the far right and on top of the boiler inlet are what they told me to use!!!

Tim Doran

Picture = no help

I can not tell much from the picture in regard to your original questions. Bill is corect about the Taco thing. Shaft orientation is an issue. In some cases increasing system pressure may allow the vertical application. I think that Taco recommends 20psi but read the installation guide to be certain. I don't see the W/M IPP?? Where is it?

Once again to be clear. Does the pressure change in the radiant system when the injection pump or primary pump runs? It should not!

Maybe you can draw a schematic and post it our email it to me?

Tim D.