munchkin vision certification

tom_49

I've been trying to get certified for installing the Vision controls for the Munchkins, but have been told by my supplier that the rep. nor HTP gives the class this time of year.
I understand its busy now, but how do they expect to sell theyre stuff ( you have to be certified to get it )if they dont give the class?
Anyone know where else to get cert.? I'm in eastern Mass.

Ted_9

I would call Heat transfer products and find out yourself.

PATRIOT HEATING & COOLING, INC.

steve gates

I put a vision 1 in three weeks ago without cert. Wasn't difficult, just follow the instructions.

gerry gill

yup- just put it in...

I'm in the same boat,,doing one now and was told by htp that I can't get training till next year, mid year....stupid is as stupid does...so we are teaching ourselves as we go along..nice products, just slacking on the training aspect...shouldn't have to be that way tho--question..how do you know when to add trucks? when you can't get to the calls...when do you add trainers?

Ken_8

Yeah.

It's a liability issue.

True competence is NOT measured by certifications.

It is measured by your ability to read the instructions and comprehend them BEFORE installing the component.

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Mark Eatherton1

Its not rocket science...

During initial development of this product, HTP held numerous conferences with us, the contracting public to ask us what we'd like to see in the way of controls. I and a few others asked for exclusivity on this (Vision X products) particular product. Something to give us an "edge" over the competition.

It is not rocket science. As Ken stated, you simply have to follow the instructions, which to the untrained can be confusing, hence the need for training.

Obviously, some wholesalers are prostituting themsleves, and the Vision controls, for the almighty buck.

No offense to those who found a way around the system, but I would still suggest that you get certified. Sometimes, there are things that are not in the manual that can make or break the application of a particular product. I myself am still learning about the capability of these controls and the software used to analyze them. You would be wise to do so too.

JMHO

ME

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gerry gill

would love to Mark,

but maybe when you requested it that way you should have also requested that the training be readily available..and why are the wholesalers prostituting themselves? I'm a contractor and actually looked into getting the training thats NOT available around here..so I guess your input did its job.

don_49

I Totally

agree.Nothing like offering a product and then hear you can
not get the control unless you become certify.Oh by the
way good luck and finding a school or a class that not so far up north are out of reach for most small contractor.

Heck if you can get the boiler to my town and distributor
surely you could get someone to give schooling there as well.

It has allways puzzle me that a equipment company would say
hey it ok for you to put in the boiler,but you're not smart enough to have the control that complete the boilers.

Mark Eatherton1

I will have a word with the manufacturer Gerry..

I can see your problem and understand your complaint, and I'm sure that the fine folks at HTP will be able to see it too. Maybe we can get the wholesalers certified as trainers. What you don't know about the Vision controls won't kill you, it will make you a better contractor. For example, your customer calls you (with ANY piece of equipment) and tells you he's having intermittent operation. He's 100 miles away. You show up and nothing is wrong. Where do you start? You could replace the gas valve, but is that the cause? You could replace the igniter, but is that the cause? If you are a fully trained and certified Vision 1 dealer, you have a CD rom that you load up on your laptop computer, and a cable that allows you to connect to the 925 controller and allows you to see any faults the device has seen since the day it was started. If nothing really looks amiss, you can leave your PC hooked up to the boiler, and have it log the boilers operation once every 1,2, 5 or 10 second basis. Your customer pulls the PC and cable, sends it back to you via FEDEX or whatever, and you get to review the operation of the system in real time from the logged recordings and tell exactly wherein the problem lies.

I'm not aware of any other residential piece of equipment where this is a real possibility, and thats the value of the being certified in Vision 1.

As for the wholesalers prostituting themmselves, they're aware that you must show a certification card before they're to release the Vision 1 kit to the requesting contractor. They're doing it for one reason IMHO, money.

I guess the bottom line of what I'm trying to tell you all is that the certification is worth the wait and the investment, even if you have to travel back to the factory for training. The Holiday season is a tough time to get ANYTHING out of the ordinary done by ANYONE. My best to you all.

Here's an example of what you can see from the software.

ME


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gerry gill

neat stuff-

hope to be able to get some training going..been asking the supply house and they are trying..they just started carrying the htp products so they are new to this also..not much new technology around cleveland that doesn't have a weil-mclain lable on it..thanks for the info tho..makes me want to pester someone even more for the training..

Weezbo

Having the book is all well and good:)

Mark makes the good point that experience directs the installation and then he goes on to say just in case you werent understanding the experience part of that last statement ...:)) Mark , ) I think i going to keep the Munchkin on hold till i have the opportunity to pick the brains of the guys selling the brain boxes

tom_49

Ken

I agree, competence isnt measured by certification. However, if there was ever a problem w/ the system and you were found to NOT be certified but installed it anyway. I'll bet you a judge would disagree w/ you.
I'm just trying to do the right thing and get certification. If more manuf. required certification on their products, maybe it would raise the bar in this business and weed out the hacks.

tom_49

Ted

I called them , they said they dont teach it until spring. Just in time for cooling season.

tim smith

Vision one

I went through the class when it 1st made it to seattle, after hearing the issue with getting the certification what they may want to do is do a online cert class with a test at the end. This would make it available to all contractors who sign up for it. I think it would be very easy to digitize this info. Just a thought. Also i am surprised that the local rep does not do cert. Ours here is who does it so it's readily available.

Troy_3

Vision certification

Kudos to Munchkin. Thank you for supporting the proffesional installer dedicated to installing your product correctly. I can't believe any contractor serious about doing the best job they can, wouldn't appreciate being held above the fray with exclusive availability to their control package. I understand the logistical difficulty in training. Nothing warms my heart more than to hear " I can buy that boiler on line and they ship it for free but I can't get the control package." Amazing someone actually cares that their product is applied and installed correctly. Every high efficiency piece of equipment has a learning curve. Therefore I am willing to spend the time and money to learn all I can before installing them. We all have heard and seen the best equipment blasted because it was misinstalled and didn't work right. I wish every piece of equipment required a certificate to purchase and an insurance certificate. I spend huge dollars to operate a legitimate business and it is getting harder and harder to complete with the fly by nights and wholesalers that will sell to anyone that has a credit card or cash. After all "They wouldn't sell me 1/2" pex in 1000' coils if I had to cut it." That is a guy that I suspect doesn't have enough training to sell a boiler to. Agree?

don_49

Troy

but that argument seen mute to me.If munchkin was so concern about who put there product in then how come its so easy to get the boiler.

The point is there are a many of contractor that try to do a great job and do it well,after all it will be us getting the call way before munchkin will.

It that munchkin is only making it available to area that have more sales in that area.
Believe me it so,it so with most boiler company.If you live
in a climate that is more force air then the wetstuff,what do you think a boiler company going to say no need to put to much equity in that area.Whys that?

No wonder forceair has taken over the market.Some would say because it cheaper system,not so if it done right.

The problem is because we had lost the support of alot of
boiler company.I seen it with my own eyes.I been in this trade twenty five years and when I first got into it the wetstuff was a big thing.Now its has gotten less and less over the years.

I can truly say the only boiler rep I had come to my shop in the last seven years I been in the business is burnham.
Now I have had over 15 different force air rep in the past year pushing there product and offering schooling that is
local.

Whys it so hard for a boiler company to do the same?

Sorry for rant.

Troy_3

Don

Where are you? Lets face it there are probably 15 furnaces sold each year for every boiler in most areas. So I'm sure the smaller $ in sales make it hard for the boiler manufacturers covering the same territory as the furnace reps. Also it seems in my area the there are more installers who can size ductwork than there are that know that a 007 won't work on every design. So I'm speculating that the hydronic reps do a lot more design work to get their product applied correctly. I agree with you though. I hope we can grow this countries hydronic interest so we can all be stronger and the public will benefit from better more efficient heat. Education is the key I feel. As products become more sensitive to proper design and installation I feel there has to be a way designate the educated from the novice. I'm not trying to be exclusionary. In this litigise world we live in it would make me sick to see a good manufacturer taken down by someone misinstalling their product and hurting someone. When you need an inspection for electrical and plumbing why is it that you can run a gas line with the potential of blowing people up and no inspection is needed.

don_42

Good morning

Troy and thank you for taking the time.First let me say I'm sure the boiler company are doing all they can with such a
limited budget.And I know it also my fault for not getting
on a plane or in a car and making it happen to better myself
as a contractor.
Thank god for Mr Holohan and you guys here on the wall for
giving of your time,or contractor like me here in the tidewater ara of virginia,would still be pushing nothing but forceair,not there anything wrong with that.

All I'm trying to said is,if the boiler company would like to see more sales and even have a chance to complete in todays market they need to educate the masses.

It funny bradford came to town pushing there everhot,they
gave a class at the local distributor for everyone to become
certifly to buy and install there product.

We had over thirty people in the class,three were wetheads if you will.The other were forceair guys trying to learn
something new because they know how saturated the forceair
market has become.
I talk to the distributor after buying my second on demand
heater for that week,and he said wow I wish bradford white
would have gave this class at the beginging of summer.
hes got guy buying in pushing this product that would never
had thought about installing them.

Now you think has a contractor I would be worry about the
comp and that now eveyone going to be doing it ,and bring down the price.Maybe, but i dont think so.
What i do know it will be much easier to sell,because more people or aware of it.How many have herd of carrier,trane
and lennox,easy sell even tho there high price cadilac if
you will.

Hey boiler guys,there alot of diamond in the ruff,out here just waiting to be turn,Whats up?

don_42

Good morning

Troy and thank you for taking the time.First let me say I'm sure the boiler company are doing all they can with such a
limited budget.And I know it also my fault for not getting
on a plane or in a car and making it happen to better myself
as a contractor.
Thank god for Mr Holohan and you guys here on the wall for
giving of your time,or contractor like me here in the tidewater ara of virginia,would still be pushing nothing but forceair,not there anything wrong with that.

All I'm trying to said is,if the boiler company would like to see more sales and even have a chance to complete in todays market they need to educate the masses.

It funny bradfor came to town pushing there everhot,they
gave a class at the local distributor for everyone to become
certifly to buy and install there product.

We had over thirty people in the class,three were wetheads if you will.The other were forceair guys trying to learn
something new because they know how saturated the forceair
market has become.And there tried of the equipment company
making sales to homeowner thru the internet.What the old saying about bitein the hand that feed you.
I talk to the distributor after buying my second on demand
heater for that week,and he said wow I wish bradford white
would have gave this class at the beginging of summer.
Hes got guy buying in pushing this product that would never
had thought about installing them.

Now you think has a contractor I would be worry about the
comp and that now eveyone going to be doing it ,and bring down the price.Maybe, but i dont think so.
What I do know it will be much easier to sell,because more people or aware of it.How many have herd of carrier,trane
and lennox,easy sell even tho there high price cadilac if
you will.

Thanks again Troy I see you feel as I do.I feel I been push
to the side,from the boiler company,and now as one that does alot of forceair I'm being push from the like of them
with internet sales to the homeowner.

I got your back.

don_42

Good morning

Troy and thank you for taking the time.First let me say I'm sure the boiler company are doing all they can with such a
limited budget.And I know it also my fault for not getting
on a plane or in a car and making it happen to better myself
as a contractor.
Thank God for Mr Holohan and you guys here on the wall for
giving of your time,or contractor like me here in the tidewater area of virginia,would still be pushing nothing but forceair,not there anything wrong with that.

All I'm trying to said is,if the boiler company would like to see more sales and even have a chance to complete in todays market they need to educate the masses and make the
classes more available.

It funny bradford came to town pushing there everhot,they
gave a class at the local distributor for everyone to become
certifly to buy and install there product.

We had over thirty people in the class,three were wetheads if you will.The other were forceair guys trying to learn
something new because they know how saturated the forceair
market has become.And there tried of the equipment company
making sales to homeowner thru the internet.What the old saying about bitein the hand that feed you.
I talk to the distributor after buying my second on demand
heater for that week,and he said wow I wish bradford white
would have gave this class at the beginging of summer.
Hes got guy buying in pushing this product that would never
had thought about installing them.

Now you think has a contractor I would be worry about the
comp and that now eveyone going to be doing it ,and bring down the price.Maybe, but i dont think so.
What I do know it will be much easier to sell,because more people or aware of it.How many have herd of carrier,trane
and lennox,easy sell even tho there high price cadilac if
you will.

Thanks again Troy I see you feel as I do.I feel I been push
to the side,from the boiler company,and now as one that does alot of forceair I'm being push from the like of them
with internet sales to the homeowner.

So again what so special about munchkin making a control
that one cannot get with out the schooling,but any one that
has the money can get the boiler?

I gots your back..HMMMMMM!!