Staple-Up

Alan(CaliforniaRadiant)Forbes

This was our biggest staple-up job yet; 3,200 [] using Thinfin-c accelerator plates. 36" (brutal) crawlspace; 5 zones; Vitodens 200 6-24 boiler; Superstor 80 gal. indirect.

It took us just over 3 weeks to get everything in. This included removing a second water heater in the addition and installing a hot water circulating system.

The owner says she's never been more comfortable. Thanks to the people at Viessmann and Radiant Engineering.

<A HREF="http://www.heatinghelp.com/getListed.cfm?id=53&Step=30">To Learn More About This Professional, Click Here to Visit Their Ad in "Find A Professional"</A>

Unknown

I see more SSU's being installed Next to Viessmann boilers th,,,

than Viessman tanks. I am myself guilty of this act as well but, I'm glad to see it's not just me. I'm in pritty good company. The SS tanks from BIG V have priced themselves out of too many of my jobs. Even the high end jobs as seen here in this premium installation by Alan. Yeah the Vito tanks are nice. REALLY NICE but, so are the HTP tanks.

NO ! I haven't fallen victim to the "price demon." It's just that the easyist money you can make as a contractor is selling a less expensive-near same quality brand indirect tank than it is to lose the job just so the names & colors match. I'm all for the "whole system approach" but what cost?


To Learn More About This Professional, Click Here to Visit Their Ad in "Find A Professional"

Mike T., Swampeast MO

Hard To Justify

A stainless tank that costs more than the boiler when you have a high peak demand with a boiler very well-sized to the heat loss...

marc

warranty

on the stainless is the best, i think if you are gonna live there a long time, 10 plus years it is well worth it. when the other tanks fail and you have to pay for the second tank, the vito cell 300 looks pretty appealing. but they are hard as hell to upsell, i will agree with that. marc.

Dale Pickard

I like that

Accelerator Plates!!?? I like that.

Nice install Alan. You might look into the Crown MegaStor stainless tanks, economical like the stuporstor but much better manufacture. Stainless coil, handhole cleanout etc.
Did you consider doing a copper primary/secondary rather than the low loss header? The LLH does organize things nicely but they are spendy.

Photos of the ThermoFin? Whose tubing did you use?

Dale

Dale Pickard

Pay no attention

I accidently posted a duplicate and can only edit but not delete it.
Dale

Alan(CaliforniaRadiant)Forbes

You're right,

Gary; those Vitocells are very pricey and I'm afraid I'll loose the job if I include them. You've got to learn to mix-and-match in this business for pricing and reliablity.

- Rehau manifolds and manifold actuators

- Mr. PEX tubing

- Danfoss zone valves

- Taco zone valve controllers

Dale: I'll check on Crown, but I don't know of a local supplier.

BTW, there is some canning with the red Mr. PEX on your plates, but the owner associates that noise with comfort and it doesn't bother her.

To Learn More About This Professional, Click Here to Visit Their Ad in "Find A Professional"

heatboy

Spendy?

When you look at the things it does, Dale, it's not all that much money within the scope of the entire project. We add a high capacity air vent to the LLH instead of the manual one and it turns into your air elimination point for the entire system. No need for over-priced Spirothings or other scoops.

As far as using any other indirects other than Viessmann's, add up the numbers. On an 8-32 at 8 GPM there is about, if I remember correctly, 23' of head. The VC 100 and 300 42 have 1' at 8 GPM while the Mega Stor 40 has 3'. Not much difference, granted. Let's not forget the draw down volume. The vertical VC has a minimum of 75% to 85% tank capacity and the horizontal version has +90%. I know the Mega Stor, while being a good tank, has nowhere near that percentage. That means the next largest size is required for the same amout of hot water. The SS, Amtrol, etc., with their tiny HX will have substantially higher head loss to attain any type of performance. The internal pump IS NOT designed to overcome the kind of pressure drops some of the lesser indirects have (that's what makes them lesser, in the first place). So, the Vitocell 100 or 300 don't sound like that bad of a deal once everything is thrown in. I haven't sold anything but the 100 or 300 with the Vitodens. Won't in the future either.

Or, I could be wrong, again.

hb

hr

Full of spit!

My indirect favorite is the Phase 3/ Weil tank. Talk about HX surface and small pressure drop.

Next favorite type would be the reverse indirect IF you have plenty of hp to drive the shuckers

hot rod

To Learn More About This Professional, Click Here to Visit Their Ad in "Find A Professional"

heatboy

I should clarify.......

that any indirect can be used if it's downstream of the LLH and has a dedicated pump and the external heat demand on the Vitodens is used. I was referring to use of the boiler pump on the smaller Vitodens boilers.

The Phase III indirects do have very little pressure drop, hr. The GPM demand is quite high for recovery. Again, making them not the best selection when using the Vitodens pump.

hb

Alan(CaliforniaRadiant)Forbes_2

I was worried

that the pressure drop was too high for the small, on-board pump, but when the Vitodens is in DHW mode, the boiler is on high fire until the tank is satisfied which tells me that the indirect is gobbling up as many BTU's as the Vitodens can muster.

Unknown

Brands,,,

I'm just amazed by the things that hb does. How do you do it?

I mean really,,, you allways sell a Vito cell with every Vitodens installation? HOW the heck do you do that?

To Learn More About This Professional, Click Here to Visit Their Ad in "Find A Professional"

Ken_8

The simple fact that the Euro

has gained 30% to the dollar has all european manufacturers sweating. An already pricey range of products is about to fall into the abyss we call...

Floating currency dynamics and currency exchange nightmares.

I wonder how many euro manufacturers of boilers, cars and adult beverages (from Beaujolais to Beck's) will still be around when the imbalance hits 40%?

To Learn More About This Professional, Click Here to Visit Their Ad in "Find A Professional"

hr

Hey Alan

how do you like the lo-cal ThinFin compared to the heavier ThermoFin?

I think I will spend the extra for the ThermoFin, the tube grip seemed weak in the thinner gauge?? Maybe this is the cause of the noise issue?

Does the tube you use have that glossy EVOH barrier on the outside? That could combine with a loose fit and generate noise, possibly.

The ThinFins seem to require more fasteners to keep a tight contact, and my air nailer distorts them at the nail location.

hot rod

To Learn More About This Professional, Click Here to Visit Their Ad in "Find A Professional"

Alan(CaliforniaRadiant)Forbes

Right-o, hr

The ThinFin certainly provides less BTU heat transfer than the beefier ThermoFin, but we can get away with that here in California although I had my guys use the last of our ThermoFin in the lady's kitchen [reduced floor adea, high ceilings, lots of glass (windows and skylights)].

And yes, the plates buckle a bit where they're stapled which does impact heat transfer.

The newer Mr. PEX does have the sticky EVOH barrier which I believe, is the cause of the ticking, but we still had to use our palm nailers to get the tubing in the groove, i.e. a tight fit.

The jury is still out on deciding if the ThinFin is worth the price reduction. Thermally, it works well, but I'm concerned about the ticking although that is probably the EVOH barrier making that noise. May have to change tubing to Wirsbo.

To Learn More About This Professional, Click Here to Visit Their Ad in "Find A Professional"

Unknown

what kind of modulation are you getting? is the system ramping slowly or quickly in temperature?

I've heard of several of these cases and we're looking at using both of these products in the future. We have been hoping that our variable speed injection systems which have prevented noise in the past in our lightweight plate systems would be adequate here too.

What size joist penetrations did you use?

To Learn More About This Professional, Click Here to Visit Their Ad in "Find A Professional"

Unknown

Mr. PEX

Allen,

I've looked at using that product but, I'm a Wirsbo guy through & through. Slice my arm and the BIG W's EVOH flows. I don't want to fall victim to the "price demon" Not just the quality of their product but also the leadership and community of this company. Mr PEX (AKA the German guy) is smart and he has a GREAT product. Mix & Match? Will these companies stand behind their products when we transition let's say Mr. PEX to a Wirsbo manifold. Accountability?

How much do you figure you save using MR. PEX over lets say Wirsbo/Staddler/Kitec? Residentially speaking.

BTW, Love that installation. Looks AWESOME and I'm sure it is warm and comfortable in that home. Nice work Allen.

To Learn More About This Professional, Click Here to Visit Their Ad in "Find A Professional"

Paul Pollets

Nice!!

Good looking project, Alan!! I'm interested in the sales issue of not using the Viessmann indirect. I try and sell "systems" not parts. I may break out the tank price, but would only offer a V100 tank as an alternate. If the client has a budget that's less for the Viessmann package, I'd offer Brand "B", being careful to illustrate the differences between systems or a particular product. Only in N. America do we see the "Mix 'n Match" boiler room. Contractors in Europe install one brand. Since we have a choice, rarely do I see the "Upgrade" when contractors present to the client. It's easier to sell a widget that costs less, to be sure. The clients that can pay for a Vitodens, can also afford the V300...if they want to. It's up to the saleperson to influence that decision with conviction, and know when to stop selling. It's harder when the competition is always driving the price down, but knowing the competition and what they sell for,(and having an answer to their pricing) is also part of professional sales technique. Know thy Client.

To Learn More About This Professional, Click Here to Visit Their Ad in "Find A Professional"

Paul Pollets

Lower sales

The Euros are not having record years in their own marketplace. Expanding export sales is a lofty goal. I suspect some manufacturers will weather the storm just fine, and may even increase sales on this side of the pond, regardless of the increased value of the Euro. Some will drop out of the export game because of costs and lack of marketing penetration. Consolidation (Buderus/Bosch) may help to lower some costs of some products, but if there's demand...there's sales. If someone will pay $50K for a white truffle, than one can always make the argument that a boiler lasts a little bit longer. It might not taste the same, though.

To Learn More About This Professional, Click Here to Visit Their Ad in "Find A Professional"

Unknown

Rob,,,

You specify products? How can you distinguish Dales plates from the cheap immitation of Upanor's version of plates? Interesting to know that Upanor got around Dale's pattent by showing (convective action) within the plate itself. CONVECTION within the plate??? Talk about BS.

I mean REALLY!! THEIVES.

Dale,l I love you man

To Learn More About This Professional, Click Here to Visit Their Ad in "Find A Professional"

Unknown

Because you used the the Mr. PEX,,,

Is the EVOH coating any different that of Upanor's HePexPlus? Can you use ProPEX fittings on their product?

To Learn More About This Professional, Click Here to Visit Their Ad in "Find A Professional"

Unknown

That was RTI, not Uponor. We basically consider joist trak roughly equivalent to thinfin, with thermofin being the pre-eminent underfloor conductive plate on the market. We have been specifying joist trak just due to the difficulty in getting other products for us, however that will be changing shortly as we finally open a real office/storage/shipping location! After that I expect we'll be using Radiant Engineering for all of our extruded plate needs.

However, I need to figure out how to make sure this Mr. Pex/thermofin problem doesn't bite us. We've been doing lightweight plates for years with no noise concerns, so I suspect we won't have any with the thermofin/mrPEX combo, but I am trying to be sure. We haven't made the tubing switch yet so our only experience with extruded plates has been with Wirsbo or Rehau tubing, with no problems there yet.

To Learn More About This Professional, Click Here to Visit Their Ad in "Find A Professional"

Unknown

?] how much for a barrell of oil today?

The party is Over.

G.

To Learn More About This Professional, Click Here to Visit Their Ad in "Find A Professional"

Unknown

Paul,,,

Watching you on HVACTV is so cool. Nicely done. Loosen the hat;-)

To Learn More About This Professional, Click Here to Visit Their Ad in "Find A Professional"

hr

Gary

do you know for sure that those brands of manifolds are not in fact made in the exact same factory? Have you had many tube to fitting failures?

Seems the only problems I have seen are with out of tolerance brass fittings imported from let's say China, for example. More and more of the big name radiant companies are shopping that country for brass goods. Look closely

Remember when we complained about cheap goods from Japan? Then it was Korea, then Taiwan, then Thailand, now China. Plenty more countries out there waiting to be the next low bidder

hot rod

To Learn More About This Professional, Click Here to Visit Their Ad in "Find A Professional"

Paul Pollets

The Hat Trick

The Hat protects my bald-**** pate from shedding. It's sorta my trademark. Otherwise, how could you find me in a crowd? Glad you like the HVAC-TV clips. It was fun.

To Learn More About This Professional, Click Here to Visit Their Ad in "Find A Professional"

Unknown

hr

No & no. I'm more concerned about mixing & matching from a liability standpoint. Who covers what. I'm not Chicken Little & I've seen no tubing or manifold issues. Just wondering. How many of us mix & match? Is this something I should be doing to save dollars?

To Learn More About This Professional, Click Here to Visit Their Ad in "Find A Professional"

hr

It's not always about saving dollars

Every single manufacture I have delt with over the years has run short of product from time to time. In these cases you are sometimes forced to mix and match. Fairly common in my radiantly starved wholesale distribution area

If in fact the parts you match are in fact listed to be compatiable, I'm comfortable with that. Pex fittings fit in this category for me.

Of course there are limits. I would not swap mismatched gas valves or other OEM safety devices, or other components that could cause harm.

But a pex fitting... I don't lose sleep over that.

The amount and type of risk you take on depends on your comfort level.

Seeing some of the recent jobs you have been called to "clean up" (ie the flue issues) don't think I'd lose sleep over mixing pex fittings Talk about liability potential!

I never have owned a Wirsbo pex expander tool, truth be known

hot rod

To Learn More About This Professional, Click Here to Visit Their Ad in "Find A Professional"

heatboy

Well said, Paul.

When it comes to the Vitodens, which is the only condensing boiler Climatec offers, it is only sold as a system. Which means a Viessmann indirect, either the 300 or 100 and controls. The Vitodens is not the boiler, in my opinion, to offer a laundry list of options. It's done this way or no way. Clients trust my judgement as to what is the best application for them. If they won't create the budget for the Vitodens as quoted, I have some cast iron and steel boilers to offer.

hb