I'm stumped

Bill Spadafora

I got a call from a customer who has a problem with his steam system. He has several radiators that only heat part way and a couple that don't heat at all. The radiators and piping are original but the gas boiler is about 20 years old. My first questions was if it ever worked properly. The husband said yes and the wife said no so that wasn't much help. I ran the boiler to see for myself what it was doing. Sure enough the boiler fires up, makes steam and heats the radiators half way. That's when I noticed half the vents had been removed (and not plugged). The told me they did that a year or so ago. I clocked the meter and the burner is using 112,000 Btu's worth of gas that it's rated for. The boiler looked a little small to me so I measured the radiators and got 260 sq. ft. connected to a boiler rated for 280 sq. ft. Right there I know we've got a problem and I'm beginning to think the husband's memory is defective. I go back to my shop to think about it for a day or two and realize I forgot to ask how often they fill the boiler. Twice a day. So now I positive I have the solution. I can see all of the wet returns and there's no water running down the walls so the boiler has to be leaking. To prove it I remove the flue pipe and the flue collector and fire the boiler and wait to see the leak. Nothing. So I flood the boiler over the top and wait for the water. Still nothing. While I'm reasonably confident that a bigger boiler will solve the problem I'm a little nervous about these things that don't seem to add up. Anybody got any ideas?

Mark Hunt

You fired the boiler

with the flue pipe off? How do you feel?

Was there any sign of rusting in the flue pipe or on the collector hood?

What did the burners look like? Any rust there?

Any chance a radiator got removed and the pipe was never plugged or capped?

Mark H

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kevin coppinger_4

are there any buried retuns?



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kevin coppinger_4

are there any buried returns?



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Steamhead

That boiler is properly sized for the load

Check the near-boiler piping and the cleanliness of the water. Problems here can cause wet steam, which can make the boiler look like it's undersized.

Also, are the steam pipes insulated?

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Boilerpro_3

Yep, what Steamhead said

Dirty water makes wet steam, which will not ever heat the house.

Boilerpro

will smith_2

Bill-maybe I haven't had enough coffee yet, but am I understanding you right when you said that the vents are gone, and not plugged-meaning they're just open? How is this system controlled?

jerry scharf_2

reconfirming the vents are gone and open

Bill,

I had the same hit as Will. Is this really running as an open system where they add water to the boiler and then the steam exits where the vents have been removed? If so, I'll go with the husband and the system worked when the vents were installed and operating correctly.

If so, I think that would explain all the problems. If I think like steam, if I can exit a nearby radiator or main vent opening, why would I ever want to go to the end of the line.

Try putting working and properly sized vents in everywhere as the first step. Then look at the boiler and see how badly it's limed up...

It's certainly not a boiler size problem!

jerry

Steamhead

But he also says

the steam never reaches the open vent holes. That's why I suspected wet steam or missing insulation.

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Bill Spadafora

> with the flue pipe off? How do you feel?

>


I feel fine. It's not something I make a habit of but it's the easiest way to find the leak.

> Was

> there any sign of rusting in the flue pipe or on

> the collector hood?


No.

>

> What did the burners look

> like? Any rust there?

>


Normal.
> Any chance a radiator

> got removed and the pipe was never plugged or

> capped?


Not that I could find and I'd expect to see some sign of steam if that was the case.

Bill Spadafora

No, that was the first thing I looked for. We even took the main vents off and ran water into the return to make sure the condensate was making it's way back to the boiler.

Bill Spadafora

> Check the near-boiler piping and the cleanliness

> of the water. Problems here can cause wet steam,

> which can make the boiler look like it's

> undersized.

>


In my opinion the boiler is not piped properly. They used one of those Everhot surge tanks instead of a Hartford loop. However, the customer says it's worked fine for twenty years.

> Also, are the steam pipes

> insulated?


They are not but 90% of the jobs I see aren't either.

Bill Spadafora

> Dirty water makes wet steam, which will not ever

> heat the house.

>

> Boilerpro




Yes but this water is clean.

Bill Spadafora

> the steam never reaches the open vent holes.

> That's why I suspected wet steam or missing

> insulation.

>

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Exactly. That's what's got me baffled. I've got water going in and no visible steam coming out. It looks like the water is condensing before it fills the radiator but I ran that boiler on a 50 degree day when most of the house was warm so I should have seen at least a wisp of steam coming out of the vent tapping. I've got 112,000 Btu's going somewhere. I think I need to go back and check everything again.

Christian Egli

Ha, but steam is invisible, and so are BTUs!

What if the BTU going into the boiler just go up the chimney?

After all, they have been adding a lot of fresh water into the system. The boiler is probably all filled with lime and the heat transfer will be so bad, you are no longer operating at 80% efficiency but maybe 40% only. You'll never have enough steam to fill the whole system, hence the half filled radiators. There won't be enough steam to reach the open vent holes either.

Note the boiler was not grossly oversized as is so often the case. If it had been, it could still have been producing enough steam even with most of the heat going up the chimney.

Has the gas consumption gone up over the years? What flue temperature do you have?

I don't think you need to see a steam plume coming out of the vent hole to know that you are loosing lots of moisture. You see the plume only if you are above the dew point and since the air around the radiator is heated its dew point is even higher than in the house in general.

Try holding an ice cold glass of water near the vent hole and see if anything is condensing on it. How humid is the house? Do they have lots of condesation on the windows?

Bill Spadafora

> What if the BTU going into the boiler just go up

> the chimney?

>

> After all, they have been adding

> a lot of fresh water into the system. The boiler

> is probably all filled with lime and the heat

> transfer will be so bad, you are no longer

> operating at 80% efficiency but maybe 40% only.


There is very little lime in the water where I am. Muck is a possiblity but what I get out of the drain does look out of the ordinary.

> Has the gas consumption gone up over

> the years? What flue temperature do you

> have?


Good question but I doubt the customer will know. At best they remember dollars not cubic feet.

>

> I don't think you need to see a steam

> plume coming out of the vent hole to know that

> you are loosing lots of moisture. You see the

> plume only if you are above the dew point and

> since the air around the radiator is heated its

> dew point is even higher than in the house in

> general.

>

> Try holding an ice cold glass of

> water near the vent hole and see if anything is

> condensing on it. How humid is the house? Do they

> have lots of condesation on the windows?




Good point. It's too early in the season to see condensation on the windows. Once I get this fixed they're probably going to be telling me that it's too dry in the house.

Todd Larson

heating our farm - combination of several systems

I am contemplating installation of an outside wood/gas combo boiler (model 7260 from 'Central Boiler') to heat three buildings on our farm. One small building has coils in newly installed concrete floors on two levels; the third level will contain two old cast iron radiators. One large building has an existing forced air system, onto which we intend to install a coverter to extract heat from the boiler water. One small building will have two old cast iron radiators. My questions are as follow:
1) does anyone know of a good place to pick up reconditioned cast iron hot water radiators somewhere in the rough vicinity of New York City or Madison, Wisconsin?
2) does anyone know of a good contractor somewhere in the rough vicinity of New York City or Madison, Wisconsin who might be able to help design and put the above rather complicated system into place?
3) are there any established methodologies we might contemplate to facilate integration of the three forms of heating envisaged (coils, forced air and radiators)?
4) given the three forms of heating envisaged, in three different buildings, is there any way we can conemplate using the expansion of the hot water to prompt circulation, or must we necessarily rely upon a pump (or pumps)?
I have a good idea of the overall system I'd like to see in place, but clearly need some solid professional advice at the present planning stage and will need some solid professional service at the future installation phase. Many thanks for any leads you might be able to provide.