when to replace and with what

Darren_6

Good Day:

I have an 18 year old burnham water boiler that my service guy says is in good condition and clean. It has been serviced regularly and works well...However, he is suggesting that the efficiency of a such a unit is low and should be replaced by a more modern unit to save on gas costs. Presently I spend about $2500 a year on gas for home heating (orignal cast iron radiators) and another $500 on my gas fired water heater. Home was builtin 1902 and..yes, it needs more insulating etc.

What would be a reasonable efficiency for an 18 year old unit? What efficiency should I assume for a new unit? I hear alot about the quality etc of viessmann...does anyone have opinions on wether the added cost of the Viessmann is worth it? What other possible suppliers should I be looking at for a replacement unit?

And finally, would it make sense to have a unit that supplies both home heat and hot water for showers etc...or keep them seperate for now?

Thanks in advance

Darren
Ontario Canada

Jeff Lawrence_24

South of you

I'm a bit south of you, but it may be better money should be spent on improving the insulation and windows.

Just a thought.

Jeff

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J.C.A._3

Jeff speaks the truth.

But...With any new insulation, will the boiler reflect the "heat loss" of the home? Your best bet is to go to the "find a pro" section on the left tool bar and find someone who can and will answer your questions to their best ability.

Big radiators are wonderful but if you improve the shell, they may take less water temp. to be satisfied, and to satisfy the requirements for your particular situation. There are SO many variables in all cases. Finding the right person to make it worth your while is the most important thing for you to do. Things change, and the more they do the more reason to find someone to do it right.Fuel costs aren't coming down anytime soon so it is definately in your best interest. Chris

.

There is no reason to replace a relatively young boiler that is working well. A new boiler will be more efficient, but you won't end up saving money unless nat gas goes much further up in price. A Viessmann is a very fancy boiler; if your car is a Maserati, your boiler should be a Viessmann. But you'll never ever recoup the cost in energy savings.

Your service guy makes a commission if he can get you to replace your boiler. He appears honest, he hasn't told you that you have a cracked heat exchanger. And he's not lying about the increased efficiency. But he should not be suggesting that a new boiler will result in savings overall.

Constantin

Let's see...

... you seem to have hot water heat and radiators. Thus, you should be able to take advantage of a condensing system most of the time. Using an indirect WH with it will result in the most energy-efficient system you can have, short of going to a ground source heat pump. Here is what I would do:

1. Hire someone with a blower-door to figure out how well the house is insulated, then make suggestions on how to improve the performance of your thermal envelope. Many utilities offer this service for free.
2. Based on the feedback from the blower-door, get the house insulated and weatherized. Since your boiler is still in good shape, you don't have to be in a hurry to replace it. For example, they may recommend replacing extant, worn-out storms with Harvey Tru-Channel storm windows, which have excellent infiltration resistance.
3. You can retrofit a variety of insulation into extant walls. Dense-pack cellulose and open-cell polyurethane (Icynene, et. al) come to mind. All they need are some holes near the ceiling and floor in each stud bay. Get someone that monitors how well they are doing with a thermal camera, a great way to ensure that all the pockets in the walls are filled.
4. At the end of all that, you'll be able to better take advantage of a condensing boiler and you'll need a smaller one thanks to having improved the thermal performance of your home.

As for whether a condensing boiler will pay for itself or not, that is a relatively simple calculation once you know the AFUE of the original boiler. Several homeowners have reported between 25-40% fuel savings when switching from an old CI to a condensing system. Even if we take the low end, saving $750 per annum from $3,000, a condensing boiler will pay for itself in short time... and keep saving you $$$ from then on.

After all, it isn't necessary to buy the Vitodens to get condensing performance. While the Vitodens is probably the best condensing boiler out there due to its advanced control logic, construction, etc. there are plenty of folks who are happy with their Trinities, Munchkins, Ultras, etc. Not everyone needs a Maserati in their grarage.

Get several quotes. Find someone who is happy to do a quality install regardless of brand. Preferably, someone that can show you pictures of his/her installs using the brand you're interested in. Also, now is probably not the best time to buy a new heating system... call contractors during the shoulder seasons between summer and winter when they should have less to do...

jim lockard

Lets not

for get the near boiler piping, the greatest boiler in the world can not over come a poor piping system. Best Wishes J.Lockard

Darren_6

Thank you All

Thanks for all the input thus far. I had considered having a blower door test. They charge $150.00 up here for the test, (actualy, regular price is $300, but they are having a "special" right now)but it might be worth it. It won't tell me much about insulation, but I can probably find more air leaks....I have already done the majority of the windows with new (old house lovers will hopefully forgive me, but the old windows were toast and beyond repair...) and I am working on sealing the house up from an air infiltration point of view. (Stained glass windows are a problem though, the cost of enveloping them in glass is outrageous compared to the potential savings.Put some storms on them for now,)

Anyways, in reference to Constantin's reply...pardon my stupid question, but, what is an "indirect WH" and what exactly is happening in a "condensing" boiler system? Is there a page somewhere that I should be reading that will explain this to me.?

And what is the price of natural gas down there in the states? Just for comparison, the gas runs about 29 cents/cubic metre here, and with delivery charges etc, it runs about 41 cents/cubic metre by the time it reaches my house.....

Thanks again for the help....and the names of other manufacturers...that helps immensely!!

Darren
Ontario Canada
where the weathwer is best described as ICE this time of year..

Darren_6

Poor piping?

The piping around the boiler is all about 2" or 3" and insulated with some wonderful asbestos insulation (which I am currently encasing in heavy plastic casings rated for wrapping insulation on hot water piping ) In places where the asbestos was crumbling, I removed it (don't tell the EPA)and am replacing it with that standard pipe insulation you buy at the hardware store.

What "should" I be doing with the "near boiler" piping???

THanks

Darren

Constantin

You're doing all the right things...

...a year ago I was in your shoes, with an old, uninsulated house that had a number of issues, the lack of insulation being one of them. Due to our siting, we chose to keep the old, remanufacture them, and supplement on the outside with (ultra-tight) Harvey tru Channel storms.

I'm sorry to have confused you with my shorthand. Indirect WH refers to a indirect water heater, which I will also shorten to IDWH for some reason on some occaisions.

Anyway, I came back to recalc our gas prices as a comparison. If my math does not fail me, your gas prices are considerably lower than what we pay in Boston, MA. Naturally, gas prices in the US vary a great deal by location...

CDN0.41/m³ = USD0.347/m³ (CDN1.18/USD1)
35ft³ is 1m³ and we measure by ccf so that's about USD0.983/ccf or USD0.93/therm.

In Boston, MA the winter prices last year ended at $1.39/therm. Since then, they have risen quite a bit further. So, you're getting a pretty good deal up there compared to us peons at the end of the Appalachian pipeline. Even with the benefit of the Canadian offshore gas supply coming in from the North and the Distrigas LNG terminal, Boston is nearing the limits of gas transmission capacity... this is why I adopted oil for our new boiler.

Paul Pollets

Not quite the fair comparison

You don't need to have a Maserati to have a Viessmann boiler. Besides, a Maserati is Italian, not German. If owners are particularly interested in superior design, efficiency and construction and longevity, than Viessmann may be in the equation. It's misleading to say that "energy costs will never be recouped". Nat. gas is projected to rise another 27% within the next 3 months. Energy savings can also be achieved by insulating, installing Thermostatic Radiator Valves on all the radiators, insulated chimney liner and of course, an outdoor reset control. A well-constructed boiler is only part of the equation.

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