FAILED KITEC PIPE PICTURES

mark_41

notice the dark spots this is how it looks before total failure

mark_41

failed kitec pipe pictures

notice the dark spots this is how it looks before total failure

Unknown

any word on what the cause of the failure is?

Robert O'Connor_6

Thanks

for keeping us up to date.

I thnk a lot of folks are watching this.

Regards

Robert

ME

mark_41

still no word

about cause of failure

Ron Huber

kinks

No, not the band. Looks like (in the first four pics) that the pipe was kinked, that is how the kinks look after running heat
through them for a while.

Unknown

Perhaps someone from Denver

will explain what happened to this tubing. Some of us have quite a bit of this stuff burried for future generations to dig up if necissary. PAP should last at least a couple hungred years if you listen to the industry insiders.

Does Kitec have a problem? If so,, I'd certainly like to know about it before the calls start comming in.

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mark_41

there may be a kink

at that particular spot. there are plenty of other samples with no kink

mark_41

we are waiting for kitec

to respond. it has been several months but we are assured that they are working on it.

Dave_41

Same failures

that we have seen. If you take a SHARP tubing cutter (knife type) and cut the pipe just at the end of the failure point you will see that the aluminum is overlapped at one point. This is apparently where it is bonded together somehow. All of the failures that we have seen are at or just beside this "seam". We never did get an answer from Kitec and just quit using the product. I have atached a picture from my files that show some of the various failures that we have seen. Some people that have looked at the samples have ventured the opinion that the pipes had frozen, Not so, if I could find the pictures showing the interior of the tubing you would see that the inside layer is imploded, not exploded as it will if the tubing freezes. What seems to have happened is that the "seam" in the aliminum core has failed and that lets the inner liner bulge until it ruptures and the water gets under it and pushes it back in and then blows the seam out and blows out the outer layer! All of the failures that we had seemed to have come from just two batches of tubing to the best of our knowledge. We are just waiting for the other boot to fall at this point and hoping that it never does!

Dave

Weezbo

Dave, that is really bad news...

do you belive it has anything to do with some excess heating of the waters to the tubing causing it to expand inward rather than length wise? that pipe was used as a conveyor of btus to base board,(copper tubing convectors?)unit heaters?in slab? the reason i ask is it would make sence to me that a pipe locked in position would expand Inward if it had no where else to go.and so i wonder about the application in which it was used....that it broke at a seam makes the picture clear. one of my pieces of rehau leaked for no reason that i can see...and i got word today that one of myWhite pipes sprung a pinner leak... maybe someone is supposed to think What caused the wirsbo to get a pinner leak months after installation and tests...i bet when i go there i will find a sheet rock screw or finish nail Shot through the tubing...the Rehau pipe befuddles me as there was nothing to explain it ...the only thing that i could think of is that maybe the dryer was pushed up against the fitting right where the dryer element found its quickest path to fitting and heated it enough in 4 months or so to leak ...I really Have no idea and remains a bit of a mystery to me.

Dave_41

RE: Bad news

Heya Weezbo,
See your message came through @ 1 something AM, don't you ever sleep?
In answer to your questions on the expansion of the tubing, it would not appear that it would have been part of the problem. Some of the tubing failed in lateral runs in basement areas where it had all the room in the world to expand, other pieces shown were actually bedded in sand under potting beds in a greenhouse running at controlled temps between 75 and 100 degrees under less than 5 pounds of pressure. All of this just makes the problem more baffling. We solved it by just not using the tubing. Fortunatly we have not had a problem under concrete, yet, hope we never will.

mark_41

looks very similar

we see no evidence of interlayer implosion. in some cases the aluminan has slipped inside the outer skin. acording to kitec failures were from the same batch

BobbyG

Please keep us posted

Bob_9

What type of systems were these failed tubes installed in? What type of operating temperatures were used?
Were any chemicals used in these systems?
How long were these tubes installed before failing?
Were these sections of tubing in a slab?
Was any of this from a snowmelt system?
Just wondering
Bob

Unknown

I've called someone @ Kitec

I'm concerned. Who wouldn't be?

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mark_41

heating with domestic water heater open system

the tank is set at 160. the heaters are hydro air units. the systems are 5yr old problems are just beginning. all piping is in crawl spaces and ceiling. application is 500 residential housing units.

mark_41

talked with kitec on friday

kitec said they can find no problem with their pipe other than the fact that it is developing black spots and failing. water testing came back unconclusive. the unit that was repiped and samples sent back to factory was not done in a way they could evaluate which pipe was supply and return, all they got back was a big wad of pipe, so they are waiting for a vacantcy to try it again. that's all for now!

jerry scharf_2

confused

Gary,

I'm confused. Are you also experiencing Kitec failures? What are the nature of your failures?

jerry

Unknown

Jerry

I've never experienced ANY problems with Kitec. It's a prouduct that I have many installations with and feel confident that this is an isolated case. This problem is being handled by Kitec. Their investigation will eventually show what the cause of this anomaly was.

Don't be confused. I was concerned after reading the post. This post keeps popping up and it should not keep comming to the top of the Wall. IMO.

The installing contractor is being taken care of by Kitec. There is at this point no reason for ANY concern.



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Mark Eatherton1

If a tree falls in a forest...

and theres no one there to hear it, does it make a noise???

CYA...Document EVERYTHING. You never know WHEN it might come back to haunt you.

ME

Unknown

Gary, I respectfully disagree. Until it is settled WHY these systems in this one developement are failing, I'm very leery of kitec. why? because even ONE such problem for us is unacceptable, and if it happened there, who's to say it can't happen elsewhere. If it's a choice between tubing A with an unexplained group of failures and tubing B without such a smear, I lean pretty heavily towards tubing B.

I hope this thread stays until it's figured out, because I want to know what happened, so I know when it will and will not happen again. Especially since we are thinking seriously of working with a tubing made via the "kitec process".

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S Davis

Wirsbo Multicore

Wirsbo has let their cert for pottable water use on their multicore laps I wonder if there is a reason they decided to do that, my parts house was going to stop stocking it untill I told them I is used it in closed systems.

S Davis


Apex Radiant Heating

hr

Keeping in mind, Gary

we were told the E-2 problems were isolated cases in the beginning Unless of course you are personally going to guarantee the tube?

Better to determine the cause, if in fact there was a manufacturing snafu, now than later Only the lawyers win if it gets out of hand.

hot rod

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mark_41

this problem showed up last summer

so it's not like they are setting any speed records here. we have some 23 miles of pipe on this project alone!

DanHolohan

Has anyone heard

anything further on this?

Steve Ebels_2

I would

REALLY !!! like to know what has happened to this tube.

My brothers have used miles of it for O/D wood boiler jobs. Open type systems with who knows what for water treatment in them.

I have two homes that we used it in for panel rad systems.
Everytime this pops up, it's still not solved and I lose more sleep over the two jobs we did with it.

DanHolohan

Perhaps we'll hear

from someone at the factory.

Unknown

No we won't.

Ipex has a no public forums policy. It is for that reason unfortunately, we won't see them on this site.

I did speak with someone from the factory about this issue and been assured that the sky isn't falling. They are still investigating this "isolated failure" and want to be sure they know "exactly what has happend." I guess this kind of thing just takes a bit more time than we all had hoped.

When they know, I'm sure they will let the contractor know.

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DanHolohan

Okay.

I'll keep it up here. The contractor can post what they had to tell him as soon as he hears. Hopefully it will be soon since we'd all like to know. Thanks for the heads-up, Gary.

Dave Stroman

I use a ton of Kite. But I did have 2 problems over the years. One with the pipe and one with a fitting. Both were sent to the factory and both times they never responed.


Dave in Denver

DanHolohan

Did you

follow up with them, Dave?

Dave Stroman

It was a number af years ago, I think I did try to follow up but the local rep for Kitec changed 3 or 4 times in the last few years and I kind of lost track and hope of really finding out what happened.

Dave in Denver

Mark Hunt

Ted Lowe


I know Ted watches this site, as does Kitec.

IPEX needs to step in here and diffuse a situation.

I've got a bunch of Kitec out there as well. I'm not selling another foot of it until I see a response here on The Wall.

Mark H

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Weezbo

Perhaps it is as a wise teacher of mine once said,

Are you sure You dont already Know the answer. it has to have been already bought to their attention the lack of some responce basically asks that rethorical and answers it in the same vacant crystal clear pool of water.

ScottMP

Thank You

grasshopper.

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Ken_8

I have never used Kitec, but...

Can only assume their silence is the pre-cursor to their guilt.

As I commented with the Entran II debacle of some years ago, Goodyear was only partly to blaim. The frequency of Heatway's spot testing of the quality of a product they subbed to Goodyear was obviously flawed. So was Heatway's product liability coverage.

They chose the road to better profits without regard to their umbrella insurance - or their own testing and QC.

Theirs was also claimed to be a "short run" problem - until they went belly up and Watt's bought them out for pennies on the dollar.

Of all the synthetic tube makers out there, I only trust those who make their own tube.

Period.



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Jed_2

Ken

Kitec makes their own tube.

Leo G_99

Had a situation

with my old boss about 15 years ago with poly-bute. The rep said to get him some of the "problem" tube and he would send it off to the manufacture and have their guys test it. Thing is, my bosses client was a corporate lawyer, and refused to release the tubing, until the company signed a legal and binding contract. Guess what, they settled up and never even examined the tubing!

Lesson, never send anything away that can be "lost" without a good contract.

Leo G

jerry scharf_2

Plenty to replace the samples with

Leo,

I hear you. In this case, Mark has what sounds to be many many samples to supply.

jerry

Ken_8

I love it...

The National Sales Manager posts to The Wall, EVERYONE who has ANY interest in this problem has been kept in contact (see Kitec's lone comment nearby) and Mark states above, the silence is deafening and no word has been recived.

Somebody's jerking someone's chain.

You don't suppose it's...

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