water hammer

Lucas H

I have been wrestling with my steam system this fall a lot. I have been reading stuff on this website and trying to diagnose why I am getting awful water hammer and my main vents are spitting water and pounding away.

I thought it might be because my main returns were clogged. So this last weekend, I installed a gate and flush valve for my main returns and flushed the returns. I still am getting water hammer. It might even be worse now. If that is possible.

I operate the system at 1 psi. At this point I have replaced all the traps and air vents. There are no leaks in the system. Any thoughts on what my problem might be?

When I close the gate valve, I don't get any hammer. When I open it, it starts hammering. I am starting to think that steam is coming through the hartford loop and going back up the main returns. Any other thoughts on what I need to do to get this fixed? Thanks

Lucas

Al Letellier

hammer

Check the following: check the pitch on the mains
check the "A" dimension (distance from the water line to the lowest section of steam main. If this is too short (less that 28"), you could be stacking condensate back into the mains. You didn't indicate if this was a new or older boiler. If new, is it sized properly and firing at the right rate.
Many things here to consider. Photos would help.

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Lucas H

I'll try to get some photo's tomorrow.

The header on top of the boiler is 16 inches from the water level. The first actual parallel steam main line is 38 inches up from the level on the sight glass.

One other think to note is this is a two pipe system.

The boiler is about 10 years old and the entire steam system did not have any noticable problems last year. The problems started when I replaced the traps and main air vents this year.

Lucas H

Pictures!

I got pictures.

gerry gill

well, your boiler

was plumbed in by someone who couldn't read for starters..get a copy of the owners manual/installation instructions from the manufacturer and repipe the near boiler piping...

Lucas H

what do you mean by completely wrong?

What specifically is incorrect? Why did it not make lots of noise last year?

The manual is available online at: http://www.weil-mclain.com/FTP/EG-EGH/EG_EGH_BoilerManual.pdf It is a model P-EG 45.

Is the short nipple for the hartford loop too long? Remember I am just an amateur at this and don't do it for a living. I picked some stuff up over the last year wrestling with my system.

ed wallace

hammering

the boiler is piped wrong looks like used fittings were installed on the boiler piping hire someone who knows steam to repipe it

Lucas H

I had a professional out a couple times this year without much help. I am not sure I would trust them to do it right. Any suggestions for someone in the Bloomington, IL area that is reasonable? I have already sunk a lot into this system this year.

If someone would be kind enough to explain what needs to be done, I probably could do the work myself. I just don't want to pipe it wrong. By now I have enough experience with threaded pipe

Lucas H

questions if I repipe myself?

I pulled a couple diagrams from the manual and attached them to this posting.

Instead of two 2 1/2" pipes coming up from the top of the boiler, should there just be one?

On my boiler, I think that pipe 'J' is 2 1/2". Should it be 1 1/2"?

Where should I connect the manual water make-up line? Somewhere down by the condensate return or somewhere on the piping just prior to entering the boiler?

Dale

Repipe to the picture

Before I give my comments on the steam piping I must say that I don't like the boiler venting. I would make sure you had a carbon monoxide detector. If it were my house I would add connector rise straight up from the boiler to a new opening in the chimney just below where the water heater comes in. On the steam pipe side looking at your pictures I think it's time to make this look like the WM picture. Once you have the near boiler piping look like the WM picture the water hammer should go away. I say should because I think the water line to steam main dimension you gave us was at the boiler, the "B" dimension is not at the boiler but at the lowest steam supply or F&T trap. You need 30" there. That measurement would help. The WM chart says min 24" from WL to header I read that yours is 16. You need to raise the header, you also have the supplies out of the boiler bull headed and not in the same flow direction. It IS a GOOD idea to use both outlet taps, just have the header outlet downstream of BOTH the supply outlets. You already mentioned the connection to the hartford loop is a bit longer than a close nipple, this will need changing and I think the connection is not at least 2" below the running water line. The fill connection is best put somewhere into the wet return to mix cold fill water as much as possible. I would plug that ball valve on the downside of the creative wet return connection. As to the piping all you really need is a plumber with a large pipe threader who will follow the WM picture with the 2 outlet connections added, shouldn't be hard to locate a person to do this in Lincoln or Bloomington/Normal. Please let us know how this works out for you.

[Deleted User]

Yes. Every piping spec

in Weil's Instructions has been violated. Should not work. Not even a little bit. However, you said there were no problems last year. If that is so, why the new traps & vents?

Seems you have 2 choices. Get a professional in fast to pipe it properly & save your investment in new traps & vents. Or, put it back like it was while you consider your options.

No. The pipe on "J" between your header & tee is 2". It is 1 1/2" below the tee. By the way, is that new vertical valve between the return tee & equalizer a gate valve or globe valve? Globe valves are a no-no.

Steamhead

Steam pro in Illinois

Dave "Boilerpro" Bunnell, located in Amboy. That's a ways north of Bloomington but well worth getting him to come down. I'll send him a link to this thread and get him to tell you how to get in touch.

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Boilerpro_3

A thought

If your traps were bad, the returns used to be pressureized, helping put the return water back into the boiler. With no pressure it may be having more trouble. I'd check to be sure your pigtail is good and clean so that the pressuretrol and gage are working properly. If that doesn't work I'd shorten your Hartford loop..
The boiler is piped incorrectly, but at least both tappings are used.
BTW, have you throughly cleaned the boiler water to get rid of any contaminants that may cause foaming? With that header set up, dirty water could easily throw lots of water up into the system and the returns may not be able to handle it.
If you want me to take a look, E-Mail me. However, I'm real busy right now, as you probably guessed.

Boilerpro

Lucas H

decision

After seeing all your suggestions, it doesn't look like my piping days are over. I definately need to look at re-doing some of the boiler side piping - this time according to specs.

Yesterday, Bloomington just got dumped on with 6" of snow and sub-freezing temperatures, so I won't be doing any work right away. I really need heat.

Once the temperature warms up a little, I will post again with results of my repairs. To keep costs down, I will probably call a plumber and just provide directions on what needs done. If I call in a steam guy, he is just going to repeat what you all have said, and charge a lot more to do the same work.

I think there is a lot there can be done with the system. I just need to prioritize what is truly important. I don't think I can afford to include all the suggestions broached (great though they may be) right away. High on the list is increasing the height of the header, moving the steam main line in the same direction of flow, and shortening the hartford loop. I also will be checking the water condition in the boiler and the pigtail. Thanks for all your suggestions and I will keep you all posted.

John Conway

please re-read your thread

I'm only a (clueless) homeowner. I don't mean to be rude to you, but I feel a compulsion to speak.

If you examine your postings & the responses, you'll see a pretty clueless homeowner (you) and some solid advice from pros. Please listen to the advice you got. Please don't insult them by 1.) calling some hack a "pro" or 2.) getting their advice & then demeaning their skills, concern & time by saying "how 'bout if I did it" or "I'll get some plumber & tell him what to do; you guys charge too much." (Yes, I realize that's not exactly what you said, but it surely could be heard that way.)

Right now there is another thread about starting a separate pro-only wethead site. I see lots of great reasons to do that & I'm convinced this site will suffer if (when) that happens. I'm trying to learn to be quiet & let the knowledge flow. You might spend some time lurking & listening.

Sorry if I stepped on your toes; that's not my intent.

Peace

Robert O'Connor_3

Good Point!

However, I hope that is not the case as far as the WETHEADS website being for heating contractors only.

I am an apartment building owner and enjoy tackling steam heat maintenance and repairs on my own. However, I am not reluctant to pay a professional heating contractor should the need arise. (I payed Blue-Ray Heating and Cooling to install our current boiler about 7 years ago.)

However, I would like to think that some of us "non-professionals" have something to share with the WALL as well.

If you are using the knowledge of the WALL strictly to try an save a few bucks, you don't belong here.

If you have a genuine interest in steam heating but are not a professional, I think you belong. Just remember to give back to board!

Correct me if I'm mistaken.