1952 House With Ceiling Radiant Heat

Bruce M.

Yesterday I was in a house that was built in 1952 with radiant heat installed in the ceiling. Naturally it was copper pipe and had the original boiler and circulators. It was a magnificent installation done by men who took immense pride in the job. The original owner is 87 and she remembered all the details because she had the house built to her specification and she was very forward thinking at the time. The house had an amazing uniformity to the heat and every room was bathed in an incredible warmness. This was only the second old house with ceiling radiant that I have been in but I have to say that it is more comfortable than floor radiant. After the visit I looked at some old literature about radiant heating which explained that radiant in the floor is not as good because it is often blocked by furniture and other items while the ceiling is free of obstructions. It is hard to argue with success.

Mark Eatherton1

I've always said....

that some of the BEST radiant opportunites are overlooked because people ae SO focused on the floor. Look at the WALL, CEILING, COUNTERTOPS.

Don't get me wrong, floors ARE great, but I live with ALL of them, and they're ALL very comfortable, and less expensive than the floors to install.

ME

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Kal Row

this onlly problem with ceiling radiant...

is if the floors are cold and people are walking barefoot or have their legs under a table/desk most of the time, otherwise ceiling radiant is better, since the resistance values of the ceiling material is usually lower than carpet or thick wood flooring, also ceiling radiant, lends itself well to radiant cooling - especially if you use a thin moisture resistant material like USG's HARDIBACKER tile board or metals/plastics like the Germans do,

that’s the next generation of hydronics, and geothermal liquid chiller/heater heat-pump (with solar/pool boost) driving a radiant heating/cooling system – even in a humid climate like Florida, you can run use pool water to chill boost your geothermal heat pump’s ground loop, then, the 40 degree water output from the heat pump, is separated, straight 40F water for the fin coil moisture removal in the forced air system (fan on low-low-low), and the rest return mixed up to 60f degrees for the ceiling radiant cooling

with solar boosting the geothermal ground loop in the winter, and pool chilling the ground loop in the summer – you got yourself one efficient system – especially if the compressors/fans/pumps are driven variable speed by electronic motor drives – and I’ll bet, that after you’ve melted the snow under your asphalt driveway in the winter, and the sun shines on it – it too can become a heat source, to boost the ground loop – (will need my hydronic crossbar switch invention – another time)

1)the ground is the largest readily avail energy storage place
2)the geothermal liquid chiller/heater pump is the best way to transfer that energy (of course when the solar is really hot or the pool is really cold – you would heat exchange with them first – and then store the excess – no point in running a compressor at that point)
3)the ceiling radiant is the best way to deliver it

Kal Row

this onlly problem with ceiling radiant...

is if the floors are cold and people are walking barefoot or have their legs under a table/desk most of the time, otherwise ceiling radiant is best, since the resistance values of the ceiling material is usually lower than carpet or thick wood flooring, also ceiling radiant, lends itself well to radiant cooling - especially if you use a thin moisture resistant material like USG's HARDIBACKER tile board or metals/plastics like the Germans do,

that’s the next generation of hydronics, and geothermal liquid chiller/heater heat-pump (with solar/pool boost) driving a radiant heating/cooling system – even in a humid climate like Florida, you can run use pool water to chill boost your geothermal heat pump’s ground loop, then, the 40 degree water output from the heat pump, is separated, straight 40F water for the fin coil moisture removal in the forced air system (fan on low-low-low), and the rest return mixed up to 60f degrees for the ceiling radiant cooling

with solar boosting the geothermal ground loop in the winter, and pool chilling the ground loop in the summer – you got yourself one efficient system – especially if the compressors/fans/pumps are driven variable speed by electronic motor drives – and I’ll bet, that after you’ve melted the snow under your asphalt driveway in the winter, and the sun shines on it – it too can become a heat source, to boost the ground loop – (will need my hydronic crossbar switch invention – another time)


so:

1)the ground is the largest readily avail energy storage place

2)the geothermal liquid chiller/heater pump is the best way to transfer that energy (of course when the solar is really hot or the pool is really cold – you would heat exchange with them first – and then store the excess – no point in running a compressor at that point)

3)the ceiling radiant is the best way to deliver it


HYDRONICS ROCKS!!!

Art Pittaway

One gripe I heard...

Guy I talked to several years ago would shut the overhead radiant off in the bedroom, because, "he could feel the radiant heat on his face and exposed skin when he laid down in bed", and,"it bothered him". Praised it in other areas of the house, but NOT the bedroom.

Mike T., Swampeast MO

Most Pure Radiant Heat

When your radiant panel is the ceiling you have essentially stopped convection by putting the warmest air at the very top in what amounts to a stagnant, insulating air film. Just ensure that your back insulation is good!

Gordy

ceiling radiant

Bruce,curious do you know any details on the system? My home is ceiling radiant circa 1952 probably similar setup.My house is a ranch with floor radiant in the basement and ceiling radiant on main level. We could not be happier with it. Liquid sunshine! I would hate to think what this system would cost to install today.I figured I have 4500' of copper in the ceilings.Its amazing the even temps from floor to ceiling.
Gordy

Weezbo

So,...No pictures?

go Back over there and get some pictures...You owe the vacation to yourself show up with a camera around your neck and the people will think your justa nother tourist and probably in vite you in for coffee as they show you the boiler room and while you expound the fine points of the system they have:)

Kal Row

it's called a slab sensor...

it's hard to get radiant perfect without both air and slab sensors like the avail one on the tekmar 5xx series thermostats

trust me if the ceiling "slab" was 85 degrees - like peoples clothing surface temp, the he would feel nothing, exactly like radiant is supposed to be

if it feels to hot, then the temp is wrong - or too many people in the room and it's over radiated - you get this a lot in public halls, the slab has to be at 80 (cooler then home use) when people come in, and as more people come in (as indicated by rising air temp) you need to cool down the slab or they are going to cook from each other's radiant energy!!!


happens a lot - in fact, i was called in after the fact, on such a place, and i recommended to the installer to add an in-line fan-coil-convector in the cold hallway air so that he can use it to cool down the slab (small fan coil - as we don’t want to shock the slab – though, the floor was 2x2 granite tiles with silicone cement and grout so it should take the expansion/contraction pretty well – it amazing though – how long it takes to heat up and cool down 4000sq FT of granite )

Mark Eatherton1

Question Gordy...

as a person who has lived in a radiant ceiling home first hand, have you experienced the cold lap/leg syndrome so many people speak of? How about the hot head syndrome? What about cold floor syndrome?

Many times, these rumors are started by competetive heating systems and have no basis in fact. Just thought I'd check to see if you've had any real experience with these so called phenomenon..

Thanks for participating.

ME

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Kal Row

the \"know-nothing\", that botched it starts the \"rumors\"

i get to fix these - if only i could lie with a straignt face about the cost, up front, i would have gotten the job to begin with ;(

tls_9

radiant

I have seen and work in houses with radiant walls and cielings, early '50's as has been said. I have also seen / worked on steel pipe in concrete systems (still working) Vacuum steam in concrete systems (still working) and many other variations. Raidant is not a new technology. We are just revisiting it.

tom

Mitch_4

I would wonder

if the best way is a bit of both? split the load into 50% ceiling / floor radiant. This would eliminate cold spots under tables and cold floors.

Be more expensive but I think it would work

yes/no?

Mitch

Kal Row

nope - ceiling is still better

since if you have a run-away overtemp condition on a tile floor - a child might get a 1'st degree, but never from a ceiling - you will smell it first

bob_25

Failure

I have seen quite a few copper failures in floors but none in ceilings. Admittedly I haven't seen nearly as many ceiling jobs. I wonder what you guys have found? bob

Gordy

ME

Well Mark,I do not notice a hot head syndrome that is for sure,my temps run around 115* after leaving the mixing valve and that is design day.Now shooting the ceiling with a Infared heat gun the highest surface temp.is about 90* at design day load after T-stat is satisfied, I should note that this system is a single zone set up one circulator one T-stat for the whole dwelling.
The shadowing effect that everyone speaks of is not noticable to me or the family, however how long does one sit at the kitchen or dinning room table. I suppose in theory it is a real factor and may effect someone sitting at a desk for eight hours a day.A glass table top may counter react this effect, no low E glass please;-).
Even temps,Yes. After the dwelling has equalized about 20Min. after the heating cycle you can walk around and shoot the ceiling and floor and get about a 2* difference I would call that perfect.
I would have to say the whole concept of heat in the ceiling at first made no sense to me. after living with it for 4 years now and studying my system, It only makes perfect sense.While warm floors are nice and I have that too. I think that the ceiling radiant is by far a better option in tackling heat loads,furniture does not restrict its effect nor do floor coverings so it is perfect for the homeowner that is oblivious to these restrictions of radiant floor.
I have to ask how many installers live in the enviroment they create? I'm quite sure that everyone that is pro radiant has it in there home, but every job is different, and I would guess that a no call back is a satisfied customer.But how do you know for sure when you leave, that the system you install is at its optimum performance level?
I only ask because the guy who installed mine walked away and 54 years later its still performing like the day it was installed now that is quality. My hat is off to all you radiant pros, thanks for the wall Dan for all these pros to share their ideas,theory and expertise what a think tank you have created, that helped me to better understand radiant and push it on to the people that don't know what they are missing.
Gordy

Bruce M.

Gordy, I know a few details

The house is a 3 bedroom ranch with a 2 car garage and a large basement that has huge windows in part of the basement. The windows are above ground and bring in a huge amount of light. This finished room is where the boiler is located. A large US boiler with an immaculate green casing. Huge old Taco air scoop (at least an 1-1/2"),2 old full size circulators, I did not get the Taco model. Old huge cast iron Taco check valve. Boiler was piped with black pipe(at least an 1-1/2"). Even the most critical eye would have been impressed with the piping. The copper lines were bent smoothly without elbows as I recall. Oil tank was in the unfinished part of the basement and I believe it had an overhead line. House also had a snow melting system. In the basement the pipes ran smoothly together with ceiling hangers. The copper piping was shiny as if it had been done yesterday but it was 52 years old. I was told by the owner that the house had been designed by Frank Lloyd Wright's most favorite student. The house has a flat roof and does not look that impressive from the outside but inside is amazing. I have a friend in the area who is a long-time plumber and his father was also a plumber and his house is also ceiling radiant. I would not be surprized if his father did this installation. I will have to ask.

Mark Eatherton1

Thanks Gordo!!

You said it all!

ME

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Gordy

ME

I meant it all. I should note the power of the system also. The original dwellings attic insulation was 5" of vermiculite which pans out to about an R-11. Now I looked back on the weather records and there were some pretty chilly winters -25* that goes way past design days for the system if in fact that is what the dead men used. So that would mean, A.Back losses are not as high as one would think. B. Vermiculite has a higher than excepted r-value. C. Fuel was cheap, system started out as oil then was converted to gas and later new boiler after old one went out (43 years of service).
Now since the plaster is in beautiful shape I don't believe the system temps were ever pushed past the recommended limit.So this leads me to believe that the layout of the tubing is key here. The tubing layout is, get this 6" O.C. every room in the house, I calced out the lengths so I could figure the system volume. 4500 Lin.ft. of copper tubing I will bet that was a ball buster to install.
Bruce that system sounds a little more elaborite than mine at the boiler. All I have is a B&G HV circulator and a Taco panatrol mixing valve original to system Thanks Dan for the library there was some literature on that mixer with a cut away view, sweet. Bruce curious of where the bleeders are in that system. Mine are set up on the returns of each loop, a pet cock type valve in the basement I have since replaced those with some little 1/4 turn valves.
I know radiant controls have come along way since the 50's and I'm continplating some upgrades to the system maybe make it more efficient I think a modulating condenser would be the first. See if I get 43 years out of the old Weil McClain by then Co generation.
Compelled to share information.
Gordy

Mitch_4

safeties

could be added for a floor system, I was looking at overall comfort only. The idea came from reading some comments about how the system feels.

50% is a random # maybe 65 / 35 ceiling / floor just to remove chill from floor.

I believe that proper control should eliminate a runaway heat situation, like a temp sensor for the pipe that stops flow / operation if the temp exceeds say 130 deg.

Mitch

Gordy

Mitch

Look at it like this Mitch. Go into any room and push all of the furniture into one end.Now goto the kitchen and do the same with all the cabinets and kichen table. Goto the bathrooms and do the same with vanities,tubs showers and toilet. Throw in some oriental rugs and some high R floor coverings that someone had no idea would insulate the floor.
This is the area in each room that has taken away from radiant floor heating to do its full potential of heating the dwelling. Dont' get me wrong I like radiant floor warming in the right areas.
Lets face it once we come home to relax and kick our feet off the floor, the false sense of warmth from a radiant floor goes away. Where the ceiling in this case is still throwing the radiant on you. Now in the case of vaulted ceilings we may have a defficiency depending on height.I have had vaulted ceilings,while the sense of spacious feeling, and being nice to look at. I think they are a waste of space.
To answer your question though I think ceilings 100% to handle the load, and throw in some floor in the kitchen, baths floor and some wall, and the basement area floors.

JMHO Gordy

Mike T., Swampeast MO

I'm Presuming Your Ceiling System has Embedded Tube

In that case, the back side isn't much warmer than the "business" side and it doesn't take a huge amount of insulation to direct the vast majority of the heat into the space.

Since "wet wall" is now nearly unheard of in most parts of the country, it becomes more difficult to get the heat into the ceiling panel where it's needed.

Too bad that a good plaster is nearly as hard to find as a good steam man...

hr

Hot heads

I've experienced it, although I am tall in the older electric radiant ceilings.

Maybe they were poorly controlled but the ones I experienced were uncomfortablly hot.

Electric radiant ceiling were common around the NW Montana area where I once lived. Cheap hydro electric KW rates in the NW We even plumbed some new hotel projects that were installing electric ceiling radiant around the mid 80's.

Like any radiant surface, the heat loss calc and design will tell if the surface temperatures are going to be too warm for comfort.

I would think you want to meet the load at about the same surface temperature, with radiant ceilings,as you would with radiant floors?? Unless they are 15 feet tall ceilings. Comfort is always in the correct design.

hot rod

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Gordy

Yes Mike, it is a plaster embedded system with 1/2" rock lathe as the backer for the plaster. You are right another lost art. There are so few left.

Gordy

No Hot Heads Please :-)

Hot rod, You are right about meeting the load. I think what makes my ceiling radiant comfortable is the close centers of the tubing, which allows lower water temps to meet the heat load of the dwelling. While the install of all that tubing is "so expensive" it does however creat a higher efficiency level after the fact. Lower water temps has to be more efficient. I would love to see the savings with a condensing boiler.
I have to laugh at some internet claims that drive their open systems with huge bore tubing and extra wide centers. Whats next, "we could heat your house with 3" pex at 6' centers" look at the savings in tubing LOL. Not to mention the Free Cooling aspect.
JMHO Gordy
I have seen quite a few electric resistance systems in my area. Have not lived in that enviroment though. If its anything like cooking on an electric stove burner I would say it is hard to control.

Mitch_4

radiant

Good pointof view. I just bought a 4 level side split , 2 on slab, and I am going to redo the heating system. Forced air now with central A/C, way oversized. Plan is to replace existing with new 95% gas forced ar and 12+SEER ac, as rooms are renovated, I am adding radiant, 2" overpour on the slabs, and was debating on the other 2 with staple up or something like quicktrack, but now I am thinking ceiling radiant for the living areas where the kitchen, 2 baths, dining room, living room and bedrooms are, so I am bouncing the ideas here. 4 zones for max comfort and savings. I ran the heat loss based on renovations that will occur, and more zones makes little difference.

Then a modulating / condensing boiler will become the main heat source, with the forced air as a backup, and operating the fan for A/C. 3 nat gas direct vent fireplaces will complete the heating ystem as we have power outages frequently in the winter, so I have a self powered heating system. There is a woodburning fireplace there now, so I will have litterally 4 heat sources, that can operate in the dead of winter even if I lose gas and electricity. (It gets cold here in Canada)

Ambitious I know...it is a 5 year agenda as I redo each floor of the house.

It would be easy to do a bit of floor inthe bath/kit/dining to remove that shielded area.

Thanks for your input on my idea

Big Ed

Air Problem

Not too many compaired to floor............ Serviced a few old ceiling radiant systems over the years with non diaphram expantion tanks and cirulators on the return. Air was a head ache along with the old crusty isolation butterfly valves....

hr

Walls and ceilings of old

As Tom mentioned there was a lot of interest inthis tech in the 1950. look at some of the big names that were involved.

with modulating and reset controled heat sources wall and ceilings should be goo options to explore. Perhaps better than a carpeted radiant floor

hot rod

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hr

Walls and ceilings of old

As Tom mentioned there was a lot of interest in this tech in the 1950. Look at some of the big names that were involved in radiant back then.

With modulating and reset controled heat sources wall and ceilings should be excellent options to explore. Perhaps a much better emitters than a carpeted radiant floor

These are some of the old pubs larry Drake has collected.

hot rod

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Gordy

Nice stuff, I have the Chase brass and copper propaganda with my system. Its interesting to see the point of view back then.

Gordy

Air

> Not too many compaired to floor............

> Serviced a few old ceiling radiant systems over

> the years with non diaphram expantion tanks and

> cirulators on the return. Air was a head ache

> along with the old crusty isolation butterfly

> valves....

Gordy

AIR

Its interesting to note the piping configuration in my system (parallel). At first when one looks at the main supply and returns, you wonder why they did some things especially on the main returns, but it all has to do with air, I soon learned.After purging Instead of chasing any remaining air around bleeding every loop in a total drain down, it will all come to 2 points on the return in the system. I could not get this in my head for a while because these two "collection points" are in the basement for the upstairs ceiling radiant. Thinking like air in a closed system can be tricky.
Gordy