Anyone ever heard of one pipe and two pipe radiators being tied

Vincent

I hope someone else out there has same steam radiator system I have. I have a steam radiator system installed probably prior to 1920s (to a very large old New Englande. The odd thing about it is this..some about six of the radiators ( 3 on the first and three on the second) are two pipe (that is there is a pipe going through one side and out the other of bottom of radiator)...
meanwhile I have four one pipe radiators (two on first and two on third). The problem is three of the one pipe radiators heat occasionally (usually corrected by taking off air vent and blowing water out, but the problem usually returns within a few days) during the coldest days. The two pipe radiators usually work pretty well.

So these are my questions...
1. Is it ok to have one pipe and two pipe steam radiators on same system?

2. Should the two pipe radiators even have air vents?

3. I have to fill the water in the boiler (new burnham about 5 years old) about once a week..don't think there are any leaks in pipe..but cant be sure). Is this abnormal?

4. How does one determine when the burner is short cycling?
My boiler turns on and off once every five minutes or so..the thermostat also has hard time reaching set temp and the system is not unbalanced as none of the rooms get boiling..although some rooms can get warmer than others.

I know I asked a ton of questions. I have my boiler cleaned annually. Also it is a duplex..the other side has hot water convectors..the heat bill is lower and house on that side is warmer (although my side gets more exposure as no house next door on this side).. Hope I didn't give too much info....I hope the info I gave will help diagnose the problem. I'll be glad to provide more info if needed.

Steamhead

These systems can work well

If water is backing up in the one-pipe radiators, first make sure the supply valves are fully open and that nothing is blocking them. Also, if the air vents on these rads are too big, water won't be able to drain back against the incoming high-velocity steam.

Do your two-pipe radiators have shutoffs on the inlet and outlet? If so, they need air vents.

If you correct the water problem in your one-pipe rads, the boiler may not need as much water.

It does sound like your boiler is short-cycling. This can have several causes.

Your best bet would be to have a pro take a look at it. Try the Find a Professional page of this site to locate one near you. If you're in the Baltimore area, contact me.

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Vincent_2

Thanks but hope you can keep on helping me here...

Hi Steamhead,

The more I learn the more questions I have so far. This sites library has been really helpful so far with lots of interesting information.

Thanks for your advice so far. It was helpful Thus far I have boiled in vinegar the air vents and that has already made a difference.

I take it from your answer that if indeed my steam system has one and two pipe combined it is still ok?

So here goes my next series of questions...

1. From your library it seems that I indeed have the old style American column radiators on most of my radiators. But of course like everything else in this house it has to be juuuuusst a bit different. So I also have a couple of the more modern thin framed ones (sorry I have forgotten the name) and one unusual one that has all tubes from top to bottom.. Three rows deep and six rows wide..its very pretty.. Again the rest are the old American column radiators. So here is the first question... Can these different styles coexist? Will the different styles affect balance, as if I understood one article they can have different pressures in each?

2. The return lines on the two pipes do not seem to be getting hot. Is this normal or does this mean they are shut or frozen even though they appear open? (I cannot not be sure that the return lines don't get hot, they just aren't hot yet although radiators have couple of hot sections).

3. The supply and return have shutoffs. The return has no vent,but again all the radiators have air vents. Is this Ok?

4. Should the radiator on third floor heat first since it is at highest point? (Mine doesn't. It take a while for the steam to reach up there. If it is supposed to heat first is this the sign of a balancing problem?)

Well that's it from now. I must admit I am amazed how complicated these older systems are. Hope you don't mind me asking so many questions. It has been VERY HELPFUL thus far.

I look forward to your response to my questions.

Vincent

Thad English

vents, etc

I am nowhere near as knowledgeable on Steam Heat as Steamhead, but I do have the same system in my house as you do so hopefully I can help you out a little. It is called a 2-pipe-Air-vent system. Every radiator needs to have a steam vent. Each return should be piped straight into the wet return in the basement. There should be no vent on the return.

And to answer some of your questions: The returns should not be getting hot. If they are it means that steam is getting into them and you don't want that. It leads to water hammer, which is annoying to say the least.


Ideally all the radiators should heat at the same rate. To get that to happen there are several tasks to do: First you need to order and read "We Got Steam heat" from the 'books & more' section of this website (get "The Lost Art of Steam Heat" too. It's a great book). Then, you need to make sure that the Pressurtrol (the control unit on the side of your boiler) needs to be set to about 1lb. No more. Then make sure that your main vents are working. They should be near the end of your steam main. The mains should be insulated. Then make sure that the vents on your rads are all working. Air has to get out of the pipes and rads before steam can get in.

And lastly, steam is not complicated. It is very simple, in fact. There are very few moving parts on most systems and what is really amazing is that these were installed almost 100 years ago and still work today. Provided a few basic rules are followed.

Fred Harwood

vintage steam

Thad, you're right. The "return" pipe should not get hot. When it does, often a new boiler install broke a water leg on the rerturn and now allows steam to back up the return, which, of course, keeps water in the radiator. Ensure that the steam stays out of the return, and the water goes back to the boiler. Check those returns to see why steam goes where it shouldn't be.

Vincent_2

Thanks things seem to be improving

Hi all,

Thanks for your advice..I think the system is definitely running better. Right now all the radiators are getting heat most of the time (unless the room with thermostat heats up and furnace shuts down before a couple radiators can heat).

So these questions are more curiosity.

1. I still have yet to hear of anybody besides Steamhead and myself who has both one pipe and two pipe systems tied toegher...does this type of system have a name. Also is this a rare or uncommon system ?

2. I will probably buy the steam book you guys suggested. It's amazing how much I have learned in just a few days online here..you guys are great. Hopefully they'll be some info on my type of system esp balancing it.


Thanks again for any info you can share. I appreciate the help and advice you all may have. I am sure I will have more questions in the near future.

Thanks Vince

3

Steamhead

If some radiators are slow to get heat

the vents on the steam mains either are too small or missing. Measure the length and diameter of each steam main and tell us what vent is on it, and we can tell you what's needed. Do NOT install vents on the return lines of this system.

Your system doesn't really have a name. I'd call it a "hybrid", since it uses two different piping methods.

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