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Improper Boiler install (pictures)

Chris_35
Chris_35 Member Posts: 49
Ok, I know I've been on here already with photos but I'm wondering if someone could look at these and tell me if my boiler has a Hartford Loop.
I spoke to a Slantfin tech and described my piping and he didn't think it had one and he said it was dangerous not to.
He is now trying to find a competent steam guy in my area to come out and have a look at it, (very difficult around here).
In the meantime please look at these photos and tell me if the piping is dangerous. I already know that there are some problems with it like no header and I'm not sure if there is an equalizer.

Comments

  • Einsiedler_2
    Einsiedler_2 Member Posts: 93
    no c

    I do not see one.
  • Einsiedler_2
    Einsiedler_2 Member Posts: 93


  • kevin coppinger_4
    kevin coppinger_4 Member Posts: 2,124
    I don't see...

    one either but I don't see any return piping below the boiler either...less of an issue , but its a good idea to have one...when the boiler is repipied you can do it then..kpc

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  • Chris_35
    Chris_35 Member Posts: 49


    So if all the return piping comes from higher than the boiler I don't need a Hartford Loop?
  • Mark Hunt
    Mark Hunt Member Posts: 4,908
    What's with

    the two low water cut-offs?

    That is easily one of the most horrible piping jobs I have ever seen.

    Yes, you DO need a Hartford loop and your system does not have one.

    Did a "professional" do that job?

    Mark H

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  • Chris_35
    Chris_35 Member Posts: 49


    He was supposedly a 'professional'.
    Thanks for your input.
    Maybe I'll buy a pipe threader and fix this mess myself.
  • joel_21
    joel_21 Member Posts: 16
    threader

    Buying one is exspensive but they can be rented from most really good industrial type rental places.
  • Mark Hunt
    Mark Hunt Member Posts: 4,908
    Where are you located?


    Have you tried "Find a Professional" here at this site?

    Mark H

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  • Chris_35
    Chris_35 Member Posts: 49


    I am about 1 1/2 hrs north east of Toronto in Peterborough, Ontario.
    Very difficult to find someone here that actually knows about steam.
    The Slantfin rep is trying to help me find someone.
    Thanks for all of your comments.
  • Weezbo
    Weezbo Member Posts: 6,232
    That was a heck of alot of work to do That.

    howsomeever it looks really sick.......it took alot of time and effort to do all that, theres the rub.i am sad for you.
  • Chris_35
    Chris_35 Member Posts: 49


    thanks
  • Chris_35
    Chris_35 Member Posts: 49


    I have finally managed to get the guy who installed my boiler to come out and look at it.
    I have to convince him that he did it wrong.
    Any tips on dealing with a contractor that thinks he did a good job when its really a complete mess?
    Thanks.
    (have a look at the photos)
  • kevin coppinger_4
    kevin coppinger_4 Member Posts: 2,124
    use the ....

    installation manual...Its the only way to prove the point. Anything else said to him is just someones opinion.

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  • Steamhead
    Steamhead Member Posts: 17,387
    All Steamed Up, Inc.
    Towson, MD, USA
    Steam, Vapor & Hot-Water Heating Specialists
    Oil & Gas Burner Service
    Consulting
  • Kal Row
    Kal Row Member Posts: 1,520
    you need more insulation ;)....i couldnt resist...

    click on red link to left, get dans steam books

    draw it out correctly with your existing headers
    then call your contractor and make him do it
  • Boiler Guy
    Boiler Guy Member Posts: 585
    Chris

    That is a mess. You could try to contact the Burnham rep Hydronic Systems, in Mississaugua. Ask for John or Ralph. Both are pretty good steam guys.
  • The Hartford Loop

    was invented mainly to protect the boiler from dry firing in case a return pipe broke lower than the boiler . It looks like you have dry returns - they come back to the boiler higher than the normal water level . So in my opinion , the Loop is not necessary on your boiler , which has 2 LWCOs for added protection .

    What is necessary is an equalizer pipe , which I don't think I see . I guess the piping going to the 47-2 low water cutoff can do some equalizing in itself , but it's in the wrong spot and probably too small to be effective .

    It also looks like theres some bull headed tees on the system main and the dry returns connect together very high . We would normally connect each system main individually to the boiler supply an drop the dry returns to the floor , making a water seal . Since it's very hard to find a knowlegable steam pro where you are , I would get as much info as I can about how to properly pipe the system and detail it out to the contractor exactly how you want it . Has the system been giving you trouble Chris ?
  • t. tekushan
    t. tekushan Member Posts: 141
    rear cutoff

    Its hard to tell, but the rear (looks older) cut off is slightly higher so that it can provide feedwater to a level higher, more optimum water level than the usual rock bottom absolute safe minimum water level. Of course, this can cause wet steam/priming issues if the the water level is too high when all condensate has returned to the boiler.

    The line with the pigtail-less pressure gage looks like an equalizer, but I can't see any meaningful means of getting outlet condensation back to a return--this is one of the purposes of a good Hartford connection.
  • Chris_35
    Chris_35 Member Posts: 49


    If I don't control the water level then it bangs like crazy.
    I have the water to the boiler shut off so that I can keep it at about 2/3 high in the glass guage. If the water level gets much higher than that then it bangs like mad because I think water gets blown into the mains and has nowhere to go since there is not an equalizer.
  • greg_7
    greg_7 Member Posts: 71
    bad steam piping

    My neighbors--a polish veterans organization--went through a similar thing. The boiler failed in ten years. And it was installed by a reputable company.

    There was no equalizer, one of the boiler take offs was capped, so there was only one riser.

    The nearest connection to the return was what seemed to be a condensate return that dropped below the waterline and the loop.

    Needless to say, the pipes banged and the radiators spit water out of the vents.

    The vets answer was to wire up little cups below each vent.

    When I found out about the failure, I asked to see the boiler. I was aghast.

    I showed them the diagram in manual and compared it to what was there.

    They went back to the installer and they cut them a deal on a new unit and install.

    No drop header and still only one riser, but at least the guy who was sent out piped in an equalizer. I tried to convince him to slant the header pipe towards the equalizer rather than the boiler riser...he claimed the diagram didn't show it.

    Oh well, at least he knew about the manual.

    The moral of the story is that the boiler manual has the correct diagram.
  • Geno_15
    Geno_15 Member Posts: 158
    That is very bad sign

    sorry to see your situation. all are right, it needs repipe asap, can't really add to what's been said 'cept to say yuk, water is probably getting into your header and banging violently, see if you can lower the pressuretrol to 1-1.5 max or less, as low as possible may help if you can get heat set like that till repaired.

    good luck
  • Dean_7
    Dean_7 Member Posts: 192
    books

    As a home owner with steam heat and someone who has been to where you live (the ice flow races) get Dan's books We Got Steam Heat and The Lost Art of Steam Heating. With these (and your boiler installation manual) at least you can talk to the contractors in your area and maybe get them to see the way it should be done. And get them to do it that way. If nothing else you will understand your system and how and WHY it is supposed to work.
  • Geno_15
    Geno_15 Member Posts: 158
    Chris

    > As a home owner with steam heat and someone who

    > has been to where you live (the ice flow races)

    > get Dan's books We Got Steam Heat and The Lost

    > Art of Steam Heating. With these (and your boiler

    > installation manual) at least you can talk to the

    > contractors in your area and maybe get them to

    > see the way it should be done. And get them to do

    > it that way. If nothing else you will understand

    > your system and how and WHY it is supposed to

    > work.



    hyave you checked the pressuretrol setting yet? try lowering the differential all the way and lower the setting to 1 or less if you can still get heat out, that should calm it down for now, it probably needs to be skimmed too, all of this is in the aforementioned books and most should be in the installation manual that came with the boiler.
  • Geno_15
    Geno_15 Member Posts: 158
    Chris

    have you checked the pressuretrol setting yet? try lowering the differential all the way and lower the setting to 1 or less if you can still get heat out, that should calm it down for now, it probably needs to be skimmed too, all of this is in the aforementioned books and most should be in the installation manual that came with the boiler.

    get the reps out there too, trust me the factory wants their equipment installed and running right.
  • Chris_35
    Chris_35 Member Posts: 49


    Well I had the installer come out and I showed him the manual and my concerns.
    I have to give him credit, he didn't try to make excuses. He simply said he would come back when he could with his guys and pipe it the way I wanted it.
    He came back 2 days ago and they fixed it.
    I'm very happy with the job he did and I'm also quite surprised, I guess I am used to being jerked around by contractors! Well if he doesn't know a whole lot about steam yet he is definately honest and willing to fix errors.
    The system is as quiet as a mouse now.
    I'll post some photos when I get a chance.
    Basically what they did was follow one of the piping diagrams in the manual with the main coming up and over the header then down into it. No more bullhead T. If any water were to get up into the header it would now just flow right back into the boiler.
    Thanks for all your help.
  • Weezbo
    Weezbo Member Posts: 6,232
    Hurray ! :) tell him \"thanks \" in a couple weeks time....

    it will mean the world to the guy.*~/:)buying a brick from Dan to maintain this site might not be a bad gesture ...hint.. hint.
This discussion has been closed.