WETHEADS.ORG. Everyone's thoughts, please? (Dan H.)

Dale Pickard

Dan, you said,

"I love the interaction between the homeowners and the contractors here on the Wall, but I’ve come to believe that it’s now a good time to have a private area where the professional family members can discuss issues that are best kept private."

What kind of issues might these private ones be? Doesn't this kind of obviate the idea of promoting hydronics?

Only interested people are going to be reading this stuff anyway. There are several regulars who post to the wall who are not hydronic professionals but come from other walks of life and who have made valuable contributions to some of the discussions.

What I would like to see is a "Lemons Board" where homeowners and pro's can start to document, compare and contrast component, material, and method failures. There could also be a Success Board as well, where owners and installers could express their satisfaction and provide their testimonials for the same. Seems like a database could be set up to keep track of comments.

It seems to me that part of the power of the internet is to disseminate information quickly and jump start market evolution in a progressive way. Keeping information private on the internet seems contradictory.

Donating to charities seems like good promotion, and who can argue with national radio presence or kids with cancer ....I wonder if there are ways to do this more appropriate to the mission of the group......like providing energy assistance, (heat, hot water, conservation, energy secuity), to those who need it.

There is a lot of serious expertise and breadth of experience among the variety of people who peruse the wall. You deserve a lot of credit for creating such a following. I'd hate to see this kind of talent wasted. There is more available than the $$ we might contribute. The need for knowledge is actually greater than the need for $$$. (there are several manufacturers and their reps who frequent the wall.....they might be touched for donations to worthy causes).

There are models for this. Check out engineers without borders
http://www.ewb-usa.org/

My 2 cents. Good luck. We'll support whatever you do.

Dale

Larry Weingarten

random thoughts

Two big concerns I see posted are about Wetheads.org taking good info from The Wall and essentially hiding it, and there not being enough time in the day to look at yet another site.

There should be a place to freely discuss details of specific manufacturer's equipment, behavior, availability, individuals, pricing etc. without wondering if you have passed into the legal morass of slander. Any public forum carries that risk. Certainly there are things that are NOT discussed on The Wall because they could be called slanderous. I don't see that talking over these things privately would have any impact on the current public, technical discussions.

As to not enough time in the day... it depends on how good the reading is. If Wetheads is as good as The Wall, I might be forced to visit ebay less often!

Dan's proposal looks like a winner from any vantage I can come up with. It helps various interests without sacrificing elsewhere. AND, Dan seems willing to do all the work. What a deal!

My only question for Dan is, how can we help you to get it done?

Yours, Larry

Weezbo

Hmmmm....

I like the idea of helping others ,Thats a good thing. the idea of bringing various influences together ....Thats great. Ouspensky was into developing "Our School"and would have wanted to be here Now to add his humble opinion ,i am sure.Some where in my up bringing i caught an idea that Truth doesnt Demand violence and another idea that there is no one who should speak for the Truth as its author. this thought basically means we are allowed to practise the Truth speak the truth and write the Truth until we say According To....i also have a profound respect for a man who wrote a song Called, "Trying to make it real ,...compared to What?" Here at the Wall it feels like"Our School"lots of influences from all over the planet... no previous determination as to the qualifiers to introduce a subject nor a demanded qualification to maintain the topic strictly within a determined gudeline...here we may make non sequiter injections that break right through the ice as it were.The experiences of the lot of us are heavily variant yet somehow, here we are, and for whatever the reasons we recognise the Truth in what is presented with out feeling stuck.At present things flow rather well on the site,perhaps many of our general ideas and experience requires we Listen and hear someone out before really doing any Heavy enlightenment:) however, too often when eletist organizations propound a party line all goes awyr... Were the truth to be named it becomes a fact,facts can and are often manipulated. facts are dead things ,the Truth, Is . We are already part of the government of the hydronic "World" as it were not in respect to some ridgid guide lines spelled out just each and every observation and interest we share to improve the quality of life .Would nt these blurbs uh BlOGs be a bit more detrimental to the individuals who being human felt compelled to speak up at a time when Listening and hearing things through might have been the order of the day? I often play the Devils advocate just to change the perspective on a subject ,even when indeed i am aware why or why not...let me give you one example,this is sorta lengthy...my buddy and i installed some stainless gas tubing,because we know how and are liscenced:) then the city was asked to review the "worthiness" of the pipes system fittings etc.so,I go down chirp it up a whole lot...inspectors at the time sorta like me and i explain all good stuff about it. union no likey too much...they voice opinion also, the board votes it is accepted. now manufacture comes to town to explain how to install this stuff correctly..now new me arrives to clarify why not. Well what is that yellow Pex stuff called i ask. oh thats Pex-xx for nat gas.these are the fittings....Well chimes up the new me That fitting looks spendy! I bet it costs 30 dollars...28.50 says our man.Well i bet a wirsbo collar would fit right on that bad boy let me see that stuff a second and proceeded to pump a piece of white wirsbo orange stadler red rehau blue rehau and yellow gass pipe together...See Look isay These collars are way less expensive! Well that poor sonagun was Red in the face You arent supposed to do that! they arent Rated for natural gas!....alot of the guys said well it LOOKS like it WORKS! see? thats my point we dont want people to even THINK of doing that buh if someone doesnt bring the topic up worried about how Dumb they are going to appear...in No way would i want my next door neighbour getting a hold of the stuff and making that Leap of consiousness. so,the manufactures rep thought man i cant Belive He would even Think of such a Thing! Yah Buh it is up to all of us to do our best to get the Full Picture as it were..including the manufacturers rep. it is my trusted belife that there wont be a wholsaler dragging it down to home depo any day soon ...were someone to act out on your site like that they might be Booted from the table were it not received coherently...yet sometimes i know of no other way to make the leap to FULL understanding on a subject that is being overlooked. After the class i explained why i had done that, because he would have blown right by the power point speil, on to the many uses of pex-xx never realising the importance of what Not To Do. it would work were there a chance for everyone to play devils advocate....that might cause a certain de-coupling from time to time:)I'd likely be the first candidate for the uncomfortable distinction:(otherthanthat ) it has a certain appeal to it *~/:)

Mark Eatherton1

Sure...

I'd join. Not sure WHERE I'll find the time to peruse both. There are currently 165 active posts on The Wall. Anything that might lessen my reading time would be a good thing. Not sure about the name though, how about a contest to come up with a recognixable, respetable name. Not that wet heads is a bad thing, it's just that wet heads are the only ones who knows what it stands for...

And as Bud from the Sheet Metal Shop mentioned, you can't guarantee the utlimate comfort and health without moving some air, and you can't move air through small pipes very well. I think its well past time to bury the axe (scorched error) and move on.

ME

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hr

Right on Mark

Time to lose the 'scortched air" term. Plenty of the top notch contractors here swing both ways and know the value of a good mix.

We need the air side and the air side could find great value in use our wet bag of tricks. It's not, and never was evil when done properly and with a dash of hydroncia added

hot rod

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Constantin

Really?

IANAL, but I doubt that a "private" forum will be any sort of protection against slander, etc. The only thing it might limit is the actual liability, i.e. how much you get taken for if the judge decides the site harmed a manufacturer that then turned around and sued wetheads.org or HH.

On the other hand, it doesn't always matter whether you post the truth or not, anyone can sue anyone for anything in this country... Remember the lady in CA who successfully defended her right to post her story re: Terminix in her area? She won the court cases (all the way to the supreme court in CA) but she lost the war (she went bankrupt and got to sell her termite-infested house).

Nonetheless, you first amendment protections actually go quite far, so few manufacturers would risk the backlash that an actual suit would entail. With the CA precedent and all that, as long as you're presenting the truth as you experienced it, you should be covered.

So, I'm still not convinced that having a "pro-only" section is that valuable. As others have pointed out, HO's bring some value to the forums and if the Pros leave, the HO's will have questions go unanswered, then leave for greener pastures elsewhere.

In my opinion, it is best to mobilize all the minions of HH to work towards positive change in the industry, not just the Pros. The more people write to their representatives, town councils, etc, the more people that evangelize the benefits of hydronic heat, the better. Keeping a significant population on the Wall out of the Wetheads clubhouse is not going to benefit the community!

As its Dans website and organization, he's free to do whatever he wants. However, I feel that splitting the organization will destroy a lot of the value, culture, and goodwill it has generated. The fact that the pageviews and eyeballs are increasing will only help the concept of Wetheads.org advance forward quicker than if it was spun off. Hence my call to put install blogs, etc. into the FAP section so that FAP-seeking people can marvel at the obvious, repeated skills of their potential installer.

Dale Pickard

Agreed Mark

Hydronics exhibits natural strengths that will always ultimately prevail for the many applications for which the methods are most appropriate. As your friend pointed out, buildings are full of air which may need conditioning that can only be had by mechanical means.
All of this needs to occur with increasingly energy efficiency, effectiveness, reliability and longevity and that is how we judge our progress.

Dale

Larry Weingarten

assumption

One assumption we are making is that only people who make a living from hydronics would be allowed to register for Wetheads. I suspect the truth would be closer to anyone who is willing to register can be a part of Wetheads. I don't see how Dan could police registration to enforce the pro only aspect anyway. If there were an entrance test I'd probably fail it as all I know about is DHW!

There are agile minds that participate in and enrich The Wall. They would only help Wetheads also, even if not called pros.

Yours, Larry

Constantin

But that's the issue

...whether Dan can police Wetheads.org's membership applications or not is irrelevant. As it stands, the stated purpose of Wetheads.org is to create a hydronics-advocacy site that is solely dedicated to engineers and contractors, to the exclusion of homeowners, manufacturers, etc.

I share your viewpoint that a number of homeowners can and do help the hydronics cause by participating intelligently in these forums. That is why the concept of exclusivity bothers me as much as it does. For me, advocacy is about getting as many people excited about a certain topic as possible. Have them help in all the ways that they can... as manufacturers, homeowners, contractors, engineers, etc.

Unknown

When did engineers replace manufacturers?

Constantin

I could be mistaken...

... but I thought Dan made it explicit in his presentation that manufacturers per se would not be represented by the Wetheads organization. Individuals working for manufacturers would be welcomed, but it was my impression that he wanted to avoid creating yet another manufacturer-dominated organization like the hydronics institute.

As I understood it, a manufacturers rep. would be just another voice at the table, rather than wield any real clout within wetheads.org. Plus, the emphasis seemed to be on engineers and contractors, to the detriment of anyone else working in the industry. However, I am happy to be wrong.

Unknown

Duly noted


Noel

Larry Weingarten

Constantin, a suspicion...

of mine is that a purpose of this thread is to help shape what Wetheads will be (or even IF it will be). I hope it flies as it would do a lot of good for a lot of people.

Yours, Larry

DanHolohan

Yes,

that's the purpose of the thread. We're carefully considering everyone's input.

Thanks to all for helping us think this through.

jerry scharf_2

Had time to think

Dan,

I think I heard the following things in the list that you were trying to address (goals):

Being able to have discussions that don't taint the external perception of manufacturers and contractors

Wanting to be able to do charitable work in a more formal way

Creating an advocacy group different than those that currently exist

bring new technology like blogs to the site

Were there any others I missed?

The proposal was a new members only site and a related nonprofit.

I have created a nonprofit and did almost all the filings myself, and I can't imagine that it's easier than what you now have to do to handle donations. One possibility is rather than forming your own nonprofit would be to seek out a umbrella nonprofit. You would then work under their nonprofit status, get their accounting and reporting. The problem I see is wtat what you are proposing falls in the middle of two different forms of nonprofits, one being charitable and the other being a trade organization. You have to choose which one it is, then the other one tends to get in the way of the IRS filing.

Finally, from my own experience, you can tie up a great deal of energy in doing the IRS dance for something that may or may not want to live on. Keep the initial setup as simple as possible anc ocncentrate of getting the energy behind the situation. If it's a smashing success, then you go forward with the throttle wide open.

As for the discussion area, it's hard for me to guess what the number of theads/posts would be active. If it was a low traffic site and served specific purposes, I think it could be quite compatible with HH. If it's a high traffic site that takes an hour or more to read, it will split people with HH and both will suffer, IMO. I'm all for having areas where now and then things can be said that don't wnat to be said in public.

One opportunity I see here is to have some smaller number of longer term discussion therads. It would be not based on hourly response, but would be fine coming back in a couple weeks to continue the thread. It's not quite the same as the more Q/A style of the wall.

Adding things like blogs are a great idea. Keep trying to find ways to increase the communication and community of this great group of folks! Some will fit for some people and will then take on a life of their own.

For the advocacy, I'm not much help but do wish to support you in this. I also agree with ME that it doesn't help us to have an adversarial position to those who move air well as water to provide comfortable spaces.

In summary, I'm for it. I would propose we do it and see what happens. If the consensus is that it works well for itself and for HH.com, then it lives on. If it is either less effective than desired or has a major negative impact on HH.com, then we reconsider it.

hope this helps,

jerry

DanHolohan

Very helpful.

Thanks so much for your insights, Jerry.

john_62

a question for the group: if Dan wants to create a testing-feedback forum for manufacturers to test new ideas on the pros in the group(and who I think are some of the finest thinkers in the country on hydronics and steam),could he get this done with a separate site here on the Wall, and...use someone elses 501c3 status to accomplishwethead.org....one tax observation on Wethead...if no revenues are being generated, its tax status really isn't material.....

Ken_8

Mark said it all

I was priviledged to discuss this concept with Dan & TLM the eveing before, and expressed my concerns that a second organization, no matter what the tax implications, would dilute and divide the finest vehicle on earth for everyone involved; that being "The Wall."

Despite Dan's contention that the two entities would not "compete," the reality of it is - how could they not?

I cannot accept or condone anything that would dilute or diminish "The Wall" as being a "good" thing - regardless of all the wonderfully good intentions the .ORG forum may spawn.

I would also suggest the tax exempt nature of this presumably benevolent endeavor would be fraught with accounting and tax status nightmares that may not have been fully explored - and would have such a negative impact on as yet unformulated specifics - as to be its own undoing!

Using and/or including Don Imus as some sort of front man would not be my first choice either. Nor would Stern, Limbaugh, or Hannaty.

I totally support the concept of raising the status of heating contractors in the public eye. I just don't think the amount of money they donate or can generate to some charity should be the basis.

But then you already knew all that, didn't you...

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Dave Yates (PAH)

interesting list of names!

Somehow Stern and charity don't go together unless that the name of a gal who likes gals.

Nothing ventured, nothing gained & if a new twist begins to erode The Wall, Ahnold can be called in to terminate it.

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Bud_14

Another Place for wetheads

Here is a definition of a blog

A blog is basically a journal that is available on the web. The activity of updating a blog is "blogging" and someone who keeps a blog is a "blogger." Blogs are typically updated daily using software that allows people with little or no technical background to update and maintain the blog. Postings on a blog are almost always arranged in chronological order with the most recent additions featured most prominently. (search Google for What is a Blog)

It’s my understanding blogs are individually owned. What makes a blogs popular is the linking to several blogs. Didn’t they used to call this pyramid? Not that it’s a scheme but in my opinion can it get out of control. If you don’t use blog etiquette and follow bloggers rules is it even a blog or just another message board.

I’m ready to give blogging a shot with my website just to see if it works and to weigh the pros and cons. But more importantly I’m ready to launch a website for the “Forced Air Folks” and with all do respect to Dan all wet stuff will be sent his way. But every thing here is geared for those with snorkels. There is another way to heat your home, I will of course keep it professional and with class and with respect to Dans site. Where are the consumers that actually have a forced air going to compare systems and ask for help?

Any input from the ones I have a great deal of respect for would be appreciated. Critic is always a part of our learning curve.

Respectfully

Bud

Ken_8

I agree.

The reason H.O.'s frequent The Wall is not because of the H.O.'s who post. It because of the consumate pro's that do!

Homeowners are NOT there because of other H.O.'s. They come to drink from the pool of knowledge available, for free I might add, to the likes of Dan, Steamhead, Noel, Connie, Bill, Pat, Tim, etc. This is evidenced by the virtually non-existent posts BETWEEN H.O.'s - and the implied action of one of us wetheads responding to a H.O. inquirry.

Dan's data suggests that H.O.'s are a huge presence at The Wall. I would ask whether or not they are posters, or whether they are observers? If observers, how does one "know" whether they are actually contractors - or really just a H.O.?

Further, I would ask, by what means is this evidence of high H.O. "presence" derived? By pure "hits"? Or, by the same name coming through the portal 10 times in one day?

In examining much of just today's actual posts, it is rather obvious that H.O.'s are an extremely small percentage of actually posted messages.

Just because John Doe enters the portal does not mean in reality it is NOT John Doe's Plumbing and Heating! I wonder by what means the notion that tons of H.O.'s are watching or posting was derived. The evidence suggests the H.O. presence is no where near what is suggested.

It is the unfounded notion of there being a huge H.O. "presence" that is part of the rationalization and a significant underlying premise as to why a "dot.ORG" is a good thing. I would suggest that assumption should have no impact on whether a separate "dot.ORG" is created.

There may be some very good reasons to have a "dot.ORG" as a separate and "private" website for contractors only; but the exclusion of H.O.'s and/or manufacturers is not one of them.

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Paul Rohrs

RPA concerns

I am all for a Wethead org. I hope there are more stringent guidelines for belonging.

Anyone who wants to join the RPA can, regardless of credentials. I DO believe the RPA has been moderately successful with coordinating standard guidelines and training around them. "Radiant Basics" and "Radiant Precision" have put some very necessary information out there.

My only problem with the RPA is the ability to police itself. One of the members on the board of directors was elected under the premise of wholesaler representation. This gentleman does NOT have a wholesale company. NO warehouse, NO stock= NO wholesale.

I am not beating a drum against this "oversight" or the RPA, but how can they extole the virtues of this or that when they can't even regulate beyond their own board.

I have the UTMOST respect for several people on the board and the certified trainers who are passionate about raising the bar. Hotrod, Tom Meyer to name a few, are leading by example.

My concerns for Wethead.org would dovetail into the ability to police ourselves and that someone who is not a contractor... joins as a contractor.

I am willing to dialogue further, but Dan. Count me in. The charity aspect is truly a way to pay back some of the abilities, information, and skills that I have been entrusted with.

Regards,

PR

Uni R

The Irony

There is no lack of irony in setting up a non-profit site in order to better facilitate discussions of the commercial side of the hydronics' industry.

Ken_8

Touche

! (;-o)

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Ken D.

WH.O

The thing I like is getting hydronics and radiant in the public eye. The advantages are many with few on the downside. The mantra could be "Its not your Fathers's radiant anymore". A national show like Imus would be a great asset to bring the message to a enormous amount of people. I have seen first hand how national advertising can get the word out. Over twenty five years ago there was an ad campaign for a certain oil furnace on Monday Night Football. Sales as a result were tremendous as was putting the furnace name out in the public eye. It was great, and would have been greater if the furnace did not prove to be a dog. The point is, that is what national exposure can do.
It should be tried. And much thought should be given to the subject to ensure it is done right. The bugs can be worked out to make it better.

Christian Egli

Can I add more thoughts?

I have been away for a while, I missed all the company on this site, and it pains me to have missed the Wetstock but I am happy to come in on this discussion, even late.

First off, I find that Dan is a genius at the use of internet methods. HeatingHelp is a brilliant site, so is the Wall and the Library and the bookstore and the contractors' listings and everything else. The proof is the traffic but also the enjoyment all of us get out of it. HeatingHelp is a model for anyone wanting to create a similar community based around whatever topic. My favorite part, though, is that we talk about steam over here.

Thank you Dan for the unique opportunity you have created.

Now, I can't see how any new internet devices, such as blogs and private rooms, would take away from HeatingHelp, and again, Dan would be the one to apply all this with the most prodigious results.

I don't understand the technical reason behind the Wetheads.org name besides HeatingHelp.com. Can't everything be an outgrowth of the original HeatingHelp? At least on the internet, while just separating the corporate names?

There are many non-profit organizations that operate for no cause of their own such as the Marines Toy-for-tots or the many Motorcycle rides for Muscular Dystrophy. These are great public awareness building programs. They are fun and they make it on the local TV news, which is the toughest part to achieve. They can be a success. The Motorcycle rides have been successful at cleaning up the popular opinion of bikers, so the same should work for boilers. Doing this will be a lot of work and I would like to offer my help.

The easier way to make it in the news, of course, is to organize some crafty automobile accident that involves - oh, just by pure coincidence - a boiler!

Beyond the charitable events, I think the hydronics cause can be promoted even further by a non-profit organization. After all, the preservation of steam heating is a worthy historic endeavor and the promotion of modern steam, hydronics, radiant heat and even district heating is a worthy cause for efficient energy usage.

All that much more reason to have a Wethead charitable organization.

As mentionned by Erin, there are groups that operate that way, there are many of them, I am a member of such an organization. One monster with two heads that feed the same gut, but the charitable head is equipped to receive the precious tax deductible gifts, occasional bequests, and more importantly, the grants from either the government or other charitable foundations that so many companies have.

This is generally what museums, historical societies and heritage preservation groups do. Everyone can do a lot more because of the way the tax code works. Foundations seem less prone to conflicts of interest between members that come from competing backgrounds. That's good too.

As mentionned by Jerry, one more way to keep overhead lower might be to operate the Wethead charitable program under the umbrella of an existing foundation. Essentially operating as a department within a bigger organization. That could save on legal, on set up and on tax preparation costs, etc. Plus it could give easy access to the mechanisms behind an endowment fund (should that be a long term goal). Finding one that would like to make itself known to a wide public (like there is here on this site) and maybe it could take on those incidental costs without passing them on to Wethead. Everyone could profit.

Educational programs, celebrity endorsements, international partnerships, awards, research, books. Lots of opportunities.

How about a scheme like "Got Heat?" with a celebrity posing in front of a radiator?

How about a listing on the website that features radiator sightings on popular movies and TV shows (Dan has already noted the oddities about the radiator in Seinfeld's apartment). You do see them everywhere.

How about a listing and rating of hotels that have radiators? That could be very useful to those travelers not wanting to share a room with a snoring loud heat pump.

How about the home remodeling shows? Can they be tapped for their popularity and national audience?

HeatingHelp is the best place to start it. I'll be happy to participate. Let me know what I can do.

I hope I understood everything you explained and that my thoughts were not too far off the wall.

Go Steam, go Wethead.

Thanks, Christian

Ken D.

Christian

Well said!