Vitotronic versus Tekmar

Henry_9

C:

You are correct in your position that the Vitotronic will control primary reset of the boiler, secondary reset through a mixing valve and temperature maintenance for DHW or an external demand.

The only reason that a Tekmar control package would be useful on this system would be for individual zone control or external function / load demand such as snowmelt and then it would enable the Viessmann system through dry contact closure.

Not knowing the functionality of the entire system, I cannot say for sure what is communicating with what, the Tekmar equipment maybe redundant on your package if you use the KW-2.

One other note, if you use the KW-10, the boiler will still utilize primary reset as a function of the Vitotronic control, but you will lose the ability to control a secondary reset, DHW and external demand.

Nice photo.
God bless

Henry

Viessmann Regional Manager, Midwest

Constantin

Some help from the hydronics gods, please...

Our install is moving forward and given some more piping, controls, oil, and a chimney, we may even have a functioning boiler system.

Our system is very simple, consisting of only two loads, radiant floor heat and an IDWH. Specifically, a Vitola 200 VB2-40 is hooked up to a 4-way mixing valve on one side (radiant floor heat) and the Vitocell B300 on the other side. The picture below shows the radiant side and the 4-way mixing valve (sans motor).

I noticed though that my installer is planning on using a Tekmar motor to actuate the valve and a Tekmar 363 controller for the system, combined with a Vitotronic 100-KW10 in the boiler.

I am somewhat perplexed by this arrangement, given that the Vitotronic 200 or 300 could do everything the Tekmar can, plus nifty additional features like flue gas temperature sensing, etc. See the lower diagram on page 13 of the Vitorond TDM for an approximation of our piping layout.

So why would one go with two system controllers (Vito 100KW10 + Tekmar 363) versus one? (Vito 200 or 300)

Paul Pollets

Mixing valve

you'll also find that only the Viessmann actuator motor fits on the Viessmann mixing valve. Stick with the Vitotronic 200, Constantin...it's worth it. You may also want to check the 4 way piping and make sure the inlet supply and returns are correct. The valve can be reversed by simply removing the handle, paddle and label and reversing the label.

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Constantin

Thanks for the replies!

I had an enlightening conversation with a Viessmann representative this morning. He made some very good points, among which are the self-diagnostic powers of the 200 and 300 series... telling you where it hurts so you don't have to hunt for it.

I also discovered that the Vitotronic 200 is capable of using a flue gas temperature sensor to detect sooting. Since all I need to control is a 4-mixing valve and some pumps, the 200 and its output options should be sufficient. I would put the basement on the first temp zone, the rest of the building on the other.

If micro-zoning comes into play at a later stage, I could always ask a Pro to install zone valves on the manifolds and use a Taco or similar consolidator. In the meantime though, it probably makes more sense to set up the variable-speed Grundfoss units to supply each area of the house with sufficient heat to keep the whole house at one temperature. Then allow the pumps to circulate as needed...

Weezbo

A viessmann seems to gain equilibrium quite nicely:

a young guy installed one and while he has the zones valved,they do not actuate... my suggestion to him was to put the zone valves under stand alone management with a taco zvc...it just looks neater than relays and tekmar control.although the viessmann make a plug and play controller most people shy away from it.... each control has its strong suit as it were so some make their own pattern of control to do what they want .some have this buh they dont have that,thats good buh this is better,mix two of these and by pass that + a couple of those ...run it through That ,Then you have what I think is perfected control of this ,boiler ,field sub system this is more likely your mans Plan ,As it were. i wouldnt be alarmed at his choises then again Were i totally into Viessmann i'd sell you thier fancy intergrated controler and domestic hot water lash up and a few more pieces for good measure:)Really Their complete system has a lot to offer. the reason for one company style control is often it simpifys the whole operation. no mixing tekmar with erie with rehau with taco with honewell with you get where i am going....however having said that some controls are very specific in what they offer ,often that charateristic is what makes logical sence to the installer. and quite likely your Wallet what long term value will you have as a benifit...?

Glen

on/off

This marriage is doomed! It is our experience that the tekmar would reduce the vito to an on/off control and thereby emasculate all the neat functions. Think about this carefully before you install.

Mike T., Swampeast MO

Love that comparison! Sounds like the difference between an occasional "jump in the dark" and continual affection.

heatboy

Is it me........

or is there an issue with the piping for the 4-way?

Constantin

...waiting with bated breath...

...issue? Here is another perspective of the manifold to supplement the first one. The rear pipe carries the return, the front pipe carries the supply. Sorry for all the junk in the way, obviously, the installation is still underway.

From what I can tell, the valve seems to match the installation instructions shown at Figure 12, Page 9, of the Viessmann 4-way valve Tech Data, Desc., and Install Instructions.

Paul Pollets

I'd agree...

The supply is piped to the return of the valve, the return is piped into the supply.

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S Ebels

?????

You're refering to the system side?

Also, I'd like to see isolation valves of some type on each side of the circs.

Constantin

Isolation is pretty simple...

...each circ has one isolation valve and a built-in check valve. To change out a circ, simply isolate the circuit, shut off the boiler, and close the two ball valves of the boiler supply, right? The leftover water in the circuit would be pretty minimal, no?

Here is a close-up of the 4-way. My understanding from looking at the valve in the tech manual is that even if it isn't installed properly at the present time, it is trivial to rotate and re-install as shown on page 9 of the manual.

Glen

arrow on the stem

Is the arrow on the stem pointed towards the supply side? Refer to installation supplied for correct flow adjustments. To check this remove the black lever.

Cheers

Constantin

As shown above,

the lever is presently pointing towards the left, i.e. in the direction of the heating supply side.

Paul Pollets

Yes..

The system side. The instructions that come with the mixing valve demonstrate the proper setup and how to make sure the inlet and outlet are piped correctly.

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hr

with the handle off

which way does the slot in the shaft point?

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Constantin

Thanks Hot rod!

I will take a closer look at the shaft tomorrow morning. Today, I took a closer look at the install per the Viessmann cut-sheet included with the 4-way. According to that sheet, we are OK. But, as Ronnie would say "Trust is good, verification is better".

More tomorrow then, and thanks for all the thoughtful comments to date. Cheers!

Constantin

Weezbo

You right dude. thats bass akwards.

why is it wide open ? dial it to 7 instead. then you have a 50 50 chance at 100 ¡ãwater.

Constantin

Thanks for the enlighting words, Weezbo!

I'll let the installer know that once we actually fill the system with water. right now, the system is merely being assembled. Or, you're pulling my leg. Either way, I thought I'd inundate y'all with additional pictures. The enclosed one is fully resplendent 4-way valve nudity.

Note the notch in the shaft and the sticker on the dial. This picture is oriented just like all the other ones. So from what I can tell, the installer did everything right. That is, unless there is a hard and fast rule about installing 4-way valves with only one orientation.

I also had the pleasure of meeting with our system designer. It appears that the Tekmar/KW10 combo was shipped to his installer by the supply house by accident. The Vitotronic 200 is what he wanted for the system also and the price difference is negligble. Plus, the flue temp sensor is on order also now, so we'll have that extra service indicator on the boiler in due time.

At the moment, our installer/designer are getting their heads and hands wrapped around the solar aspect of the install. While the piping to the roof, etc. is pretty trivial, the tie-in and set-up are not (at least until you read the manual). Ah yes, installers that actually read the manuals that ship with equipment... another rarity.

Constantin

Thanks Paul!

See the post below in reply to Weezbo. It has a closeup of the piping itself. All seems fine there.

Also, my designer apparently wanted to use the Vitotronic 200 all along, the first time he heard of the Tekmar is when I e-mailed him. So, the 200 is going in today, as well as the solar stuff. They're still familiarizing themselves with that part of the system, the start (pumping block, et al) is enclosed below.

Presumably, Viessmann has made it it relatively simple to tie the Vitosol 300, solartrol, divicon, vitocell B300, and Vitotronic 200 together?

I have yet to go through the install manual myself but suspect that there is no need for the Solar part of the system to electronically interface with the Vitotronic at any level. Instead, KISS would dictate that the Vitotronic simply notes that the IDWH is not calling for heat, right?

Constantin

There is a happy ending...

... the Tekmar and the Vitotronic 100 are on their way back to the supply house. The Vitotronic 200 is getting installed today. I'll post some pics once they have consumated their marriage. ;-)

In the meantime, the whole HVAC system is coming together rather well. The AC ductwork is now making it's appearance, should be interesting to see how they thread everything down there. The ceilings are starting to look like the insides of a submarine... whoever gets there first, get's the straight shot, everyone else gets to work around them...