Best Tekmar Control Setup?

Constantin

... I'd have someone install a Vision I system instead. That way you get full modulation, outdoor reset, etc. all in a package. On the other hand, some people like that they can fiddle with Tekmars more than with the Vision system, particularly technically-inclined homeowners that balk at being locked out of the Vision I (you have to be certified by HTP to use it).

IIRC, there is an interface board coming out at some point that wall allow Tekmars to fully modulate the Munchkin. Might be worth a call to the factory. Cheers!

Dunwell

Best Tekmar Controls Setup?

Hi all,
I'm doing a new contruction and will be using a Munchkin condensing boiler with a SuperStor water heater. I will also have a Jass LT heat exchanger which will heat a 7000 gal. indoor pool. I would like to find out the best Tekmar controls to use with this setup. I want outdoor temp. controls and the ability to prioritize DHW, but I also need some way to manage the heat exchanger to the pool. Is the 260 sufficient or is there another control that is more efficient? I want to keep this as simple as possible.
Thanks,
Dunn

Dunwell

Thanks Constantin,
I talked to my plumber and he was confused as to why everyone couldn't have access to the Vision. I'd love to use it, but guess I'll have to stick with Tekmar.
dun

Constantin

To be fair...

... it is my understanding that HTP offers these courses regularly and happily. Perhaps Chuck or MunchkinMan can send you or your hydronic an e-mail with the course requirements, schedule, etc. At the very least, give HTP a call, I'm sure they'd love to talk to you.

From what I have seen, HTP is dedicated to spreading knowledge about their products and simply does not publish all the Vision I specs because they don't want hacks to get into the more sophisticated aspects of their product. This is a perfectly sensible policy, IMHO, and other manufacturers practice the same kind of lockout policies also.

DaveGateway

Other option

Get the Peerless Pinnacle: same boiler. I believe the new 263 will work on this boiler with the new interface board that's there. Search the archives for the the pinnacle, the upgraded tekmar control was discussed by a Tekmar rep.

S Davis

Tekmar

If you use the munchkin without the vision one you might have problems generating enough hot water as it will start on low fire and slowly ramp up to high fire, so you will not have 180 degree water right away for your domestic hot water generation, I have had several customers call to have me check out jobs installed by other heating contractors that were having this problem.

S Davis


Apex Radiant Heating

Mark Eatherton1

In the words of Richard Trethewey...

Ya needs a 150 running a 152 talking to a 263 running a 363 talking to a 661 talking to a 265 that runs the 4 way hydromeshinizer valve, and when it doesn't work, ya needs a .357... KAPOW!!!!!

I must admit, I was one of the people in the original discussion/focus group that asked HTP for exclusivity on the V-1 controls. I have no regrets, and I tell other contractors to get certified so they too can speak the secret language of the lil Munchkins. The wrong tools in the wrong hands can be dangerous...

If a person takes the time to become properly educated, it will come back to pay him and his customer many times over.

ME

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Steve Eayrs

recommendations to HTP

You should improve your directions that you send with your boilers, to include the vision control options, and what it could do to inmprove things. (or have you since I last saw the directions?) Your earlier directions gave you basically nothing to go on, as far as your prefered piping methods, and if I had of followed them, I would have had to repipe it once the vision 1 finally showed up.

You should also put your training on the road, unless you just want the east coast to install your boilers. For those of us on the west coast or Alaska, we count on reps. sponsering seminars for such things. Tekmar, Veissmann, Rinnai, Taco and many others do such and many certify people who show up at such things. Many of us have many years experience at other controls like Tekmar and other, and have been to their factory schools too, as well as the Seminars, but most of these factory schools have been on the west coast. I am sure I could pick up a few things about your particular product, if something closer was around, and I could also take my guys. I have no plans on investing in flying thousands of miles to such a thing, at present.


If the above is not done, then I guess your approach is to give the allusion that vision 1 is so advanced that only your factory school will do, when in fact the install is rather elementary, compared to some of the Tekmar control wiring. It just lacked good directions.

Its also not really a proper comparision on price, when your boiler, which really can't operate like it should without the controls, does not include the controls. I'm not sure you really should be marketing your boiler to those, many of whom don't even know the controls exist, when they buy the boiler. If you want to be compared with companies like Veissmann/Buderus then put your show on the road like they do, and let the true cost of the total package be known up front. Most price comparisions I see people doing, on these boilers are done with controls, not without. It does narrow the gap some.


One last comment......A recent post was noting the large amount of boilers that can be bought on the net, by anyone. They also alluded that this is a plus for munchkin, since they were not listed. I would like to offer another explanation..... Of the 6-8 munchkins installed the last couple years in this area, (that I know of), I believe only one of them was bought by a lisc'd mechanical contractor. The rest were bought aprox. 250 miles up the road, by homeowners, like they were an appliance, (like a toaster), that just needed to be plugged in. Who needs the internet to get around the system, when things are done so easy face to face. They might as well sell them thru Home Depot. I have been told that this has been taken care of and won't continue to happen, but know better. Its just all too hard for some reps. to turn down another sale, when there goal is to compete with HD.


Steve

Steve Eayrs

Mark

I wrote my note, then saw yours. Can't help myself and must respond.

You jest....I hope....when mentioning needing all the Tekmar controls, linked together. In most cases, just one control will take care of the needs, and Tekmar has great brocheres so anyone can decide which control would work best, for which application. They are very upfront, and believe that educating people, up front is the best way to do things.

I guess that Munchkins is just trying to live up their name, and keep it a "secret", for just those who travel the yellow brick road, only to find that theres just a little old man, and no real magic behind the curtain.


You must admit that they really don't have any kind of new enlightenment to offer, that some others had not already offered years ago. The only difference is the marketing statagy that tries to keep a "secret" , which of course works in their favor with the public that always wants to be in on the big secret.


Need I also mention that depending which year you bought your munchy, you would need to also buy control upgrades, (like 925?)just to also have the privledge to now spend more for the vision 1. Sounds like another good reason to keep it a secret. If it had all been known upfront, it may have not been a munchy sale.


Steve

Mark Eatherton1

Shirley...

I jest. Actually, Richard jested, and I relayed. I too am aware of the controls capability of tekmar, being duly certified. But I can't tell you how many botched up, over controlled, under designed system using tekmar I have had the opportunity to de-bug. The same goes for just about any control manufacturer out there. In the wrong hands, complicated controls can be dangerous.

I'm a firm member of the KISS program when possible, and it's not always possible. I have some control logics out there that if and when I pass to the other side, some poor **** is going to want to pull his hair out. If he's smart, he'll look into the O&M manual we leave on EVERY job, that has a verbal description of what was planned, along with a wiring schematic showing how it was done. I wish I had access to this information on all the other jobs we "inheret" from contractor who were here today, gone tomorrow...

As for Munchkin, I don't think they WANT to be in the same class as Viessmann and Buderus. They are in a class of their own. Affordable, efficient and proud. Doesn't work for every one, but works rather well for them. I admire Dave Davis and his crew for fending off the flack attacks of all their competitors. I use their competitions products too. I'm not tied to any one particular product. I spec what is appropriate for the job, and it's not always Munchkin, nor is it always tekmar.

People that tie themsleves to one particular product are limiting their market exposure IMHO. Been there, done that, have the battle scars to prove it, and expect to get even more scars before they throw dirt on my face. Lifes tough, and too short to tie yourself to one product line for each application.

If company X brings me a lead, I sell company X's product. If company Y brings me a job, I use company Y's product. If company X doesn't like the fact that I also deal in company Y's product, then they don't have to bring me anymore business. Simple as that!

I scratch their back, they scratch mine. We both make scratch.

ME

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Mark Eatherton1

5 minutes...

from the time its started to the time it hits peak output. Different than we are used to, yes. More efficient use of energy? I think so. When you get into your car, do you floor the accelerator and start the key and keep your foot with the petal to the metal and control the speed with the brakes? I hope not. Neither does the Munchkin. It starts at idle and works its way upward until it approaches its set point, and backs off the accelerator as it approaches it target. If a hill (load) pops up out of no where, it sees it and steps down on the accelerator again until it approaches its predetermined speed (temperature).

This logic catches most contractors by suprise. They're used to having the boiler fire at full capacity and modulate once the've already overshot their target. This is also reflected in the construction of their DHW tanks. Big tank, small coils. Requires HIGH temperatures to transfer adequate BTU's.

Time to change our ways of thinking me thinks...

My DHW tank has 80 gallons of boiler water in it maintained at 140 degrees F, and a small coil immersed in the top of the tank for DHW production. It keeps my lil Muncher right in the "sweet spot" of condensing and I've never run out of hot water. Reverse thinking at its finest!

Thanks to Gregg Gibbs of Shamrock Sales, and the fine folks at Amtrol for the opportunity to test this product.

ME

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hydronicsmike

Dunwell

I believe HTP has an Interface Module now available for their Munschkin Boiler so it can be operated by a tekmar Control. You may want to double check with them, but if they have it now, you could use a 263 for a single Modulating Boiler and DHW and a Setpoint Demand from the Pool, or use a 265 if you are using two or more Munschkins on this job. The 265 can stage and modulate up to three single boilers, or even more if those are doubled up.

I hope this helps.

Regards,

Mike