One of the things I'd like to discuss at Wetstock V (Dan H.)

DanHolohan

and kick this around with the whole group:

Should there be a not-for-profit, hydronically minded (and probably Web-based), association that's specifically geared toward the needs of Wetheads?

I have some ideas I'd like to share with you. If you're coming to Wetstock V, please let that thought simmer in the back of your mind for the next couple of weeks and we'll talk about it then. Thanks.

ScottMP

Very Interesting

Can't wait for November.

Scott

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Ken_8

I think we already have the makings...

They're called GAMA: I=B=R.

Perhaps, since they already have a "history" AND knowledge, based upon the sound scientific fundamentals of ASHRAE, we simply need to "tweak" their orientation to better serve the purpose you seem to suggest?

The fact that they have been around for 100 years, still the only voice that is "science-based" (as opposed to sales driven), without strong bias, as well as being a well established educational facility (I can attest to that), bodes well for them being the focus - of what you may have in mind?



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DanHolohan

Contractors

are not allowed to join those associations, Ken. Neither are wholesalers.

Robert O'Connor_6

RPA

Isn't RPA non profit?


Regards

Robert

ME

Mi39ke_2

Off the top of the head

Random noodling...

When you involve wholesalers, reps and manufacturers in a group with contractors you have created a division, in my opinion. Unless of course, the contractors are more devoted to serving the sale of product/s of choice rather than serving the consumer.

Contractors have different customers than people who sell boxes. Period. Unless the box sellers are selling directly to consumers, of course.

The hardest thing for a contractor to do is to focus on the consumer's needs. We love our support and our friends who sell us product. We seldom look outside our vendor's range of product or knowledge base. The consumer suffers, because we are not educated enough to stand on our own and provide the very best and most specific solution for them.

The consumer deserves better than a contractor who drags them to a wholesale house for a dog and pony show or who gives them a cookie-cutter design/installation.

When have you ever seen a widget salesman ever try and sell less product by coming up with good ideas that would benefit the consumer? They wouldn't be in business long (in the current world) if they did.

A long time ago, Dan, you were blunt and honest with me and I hear that voice in my mind all the time. To paraphrase what you wrote: You will never get all the manufacturers to work together on anything. It's not in their nature or in their best interest.

And it follows that if you don't get ALL the sellers of boxes to work together, you have organizations such as the RPA or Rich T.'s group (which features specific manufacturer support).

A pure, contractors-only association with level criticism and critiques of product, industry and application is required. A true and devoted educational staff. A magazine that is not afraid or biased. A consumer oriented approach to serving the public.

You don't need to be an industry cheerleader to provide a service that the consumer will surely see as the proper method for contractors to advance in the industry in order to serve them better. Build it and the consumer will see the light. Pure, simple, honest. Just my opinion.

Yes, too much coffee this AM.

Michael Ward

John Felciano

Hmmm

Sounds like a interesting and different topic,other than just the technical side of things.How would it differ than the RPA? I guess it would include ALL hydronic type installations rather than just radiant panels.

John Felciano

Yes

Yes,the RPA is a not for profit organazation.

Unknown

A much needed

process of dealing with the many complex issues that installers have to face in this day and age. With all of the new technology it behooves us to come together and develop some sort of network for exchangeof ideas and solutions to problems we all face.

It has been my experience that manufacturers do not necessarily want to join together for the mutual good of all unless they see profit, and even then they will find a way to compete, but hey that is what it is all about.

We are so intent on training folks on what is new and exciting that we miss the fact that a lot of us still cannot fix what we have out there.

This idea of a web based gathering point for ideas is up and working although somewhat informal it is called the Wall or Oiltech talk or some other sites that allow us to pool ideas and knowledge. It is however difficult to spend all the time to read all the posts and gather all the information.

I for one have much to offer but often find myself torn between making a living or giving something away because someone is in real trouble and needs help NOW! It is my policy to give help when needed.

Lack of knowledge is the real problem. It exists on all levels of the industry from the manufacturer to the distributor to the contractor to the consumer. When we are all profit based it removes the quality of education and lowers it to economics. Simple truth product education takes time, time is money, in direct dollar value education sometimes takes a back seat to necessity and time.

I for one find it interesting when talking to manufacturers and others involved in product promotion and the discussion of training time comes up. They tell me that training any longer than half a day is excessive. Hey it takes me that long just to wake up in the morning. They are shocked when I tell them that folks come and sit in my classes for a week straight (five 8 hour days) and no one has a problem. They go to other trainers classes that last three days and no problem. If you have a brand new and complicated piece of equipment you want to sell you need to spend more time training on it. I for one cannot learn all about Paloma Paks, Heatmakers, HydroPulse and the list goes on in one session. I mention those becasue hey they have sort of gone by the wayside. WHY my opinion is that they were not bad products but poorly served all the way around.

I sit in on many training sessions on new equipment, I hate to say this but most of them are very poor to downright booring. They are dog and pony shows with fancy powerpoint and sales oriented information. The famous answer to questions asked of the presenter "I will have to get back to you on that", gents a good salesman does not a trainer make. We all need answers to these questions which have gone unanswered for all of the 40 some years I have been here.

One last thing, in spite of all this I for one have had to spend many hours on all those products on my own, no instructor, just my tools and meters. I finally figured it all out, I am a little slow sometimes. Let me get my hands on that thing and then I will tell you how it works.

Sorry to go on so long but this is another one of my sore points in the business.

Oh, one last thing please do not get the government involved in this. I am involved in a court case between the state and a utility over a law that was passed. It can become a nightmare. Please we have enough liscenses and regulations, we should be monitered by our own tradesmen and not some govt. official.

Bob Depew

All for it

Dan one midwest contractor (leaves keys in truck)that thinks it is a great ideal and if I can help here let me know

Manufacture companies have no interest in this type of excange of info. So it is up to the contractor to put our rep and the customer number one.

This will be hard for some contractors to tell all they sill put themself out there as number 1.

This would help all to get a look at what works and what is a flop. No manufacture telling you a line to get there "so called product" and the profit from a sell.

To much "Dew"

Robert O'Connor_6

does

it meet Dan's description.(I'm not a member)

Personally. I think the Wall is the most powerfull hydronic association there is.

Regards

Robert

ME

DanHolohan

Thanks to you all

for the well-thought-out input. I look forward to sharing some ideas with you in Providence. Thanks.

Larry Weingarten

Dare I suggest...

that this sounds like a good time to involve engineers? They are not supposed to have specific equipment bias and being involved with folks who are daily in the field would only help them to do a better job. The engineering community has a huge amount of information available that would only help the contractors do a better job. Joining forces with an allied, non-competing group should benefit all. Or maybe this view is too simplistic...

hr

Larry, great point

some of the best committe worke done at the RPA has happened when PE's get involved. Same with the newsletter.

Bean, Hayden, Siegenthaler, Meyers, Springer, Watson, Chapman and many, many others have, and still do, help with developing our training and standards programs.

The RPA usually has 15- 20 members from the enginnering community. Some of the larger mechanical firms, involved with the RPA have ME's on staff, also.

I agree their views and input would be critical. ASHRAE comes to mind as an ally, but it can take decades for them to agree on some projects

hot rod

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Kal Row

isolation is inherently one sided...

the best thing about the wall is that everyone can get in on the game, even a dead wrong opinion from a "no nothing" is educational, as you can learn what/where the erroneous perceptions are, and they are usually corrected before the damage is done, it will take real inventiveness, to improve on this forum without damaging the value of “openness”

and associations almost always, don’t fly, without a real employee base to operate it – which costs money, for profit or not, and all they have, is their own job security in mind, happens again and again, they usually just serve themselves – unless they have a real strong president – that doesn’t need the job – you up for it dan? you got my vote!

on the other hand if there is even a chance that we can really drive standards and codes, then it’s worth it – like allowing pro-press and gas-tite in NYC – right now if you want pro-press in nyc, you have to br… enough inspectors to look the other way, until it becomes code, by sheer installed volume – this methodology is commonplace in large cities – many inspectors will already look the other way, on flexi-supply lines and pvc under sink drains – cause of the sheer installed volume – and the gas co is so desperate to take oil business away, that they allowed a 3ft flexi gas connection on a conversion!

we can fight manufactures with our spending votes, but for city-hall – we need an association with power stronger than unions, who, so far, are the ones controlling the code….

Leo G_99

oh yeah!

a case in point we are "educating" an engineer right now about injection systems.
all i can say is thank God we have an accreditted heating association that has some clout and the president is a willing and able educator!

Leo G

Mark Eatherton1

What Leo said...

I know most people don't want any additional gubernmint intervention, but IMHO, this is one area that needs it. I met with 50 mechanical inspectors this Thursday for a breif session on radiant and snowmelt systems. These are some really fine folk, and they are BEGGING for help. They are trainable and willing to learn.

Put yourself into their posistion. You walk into a mechancial room that has more pumps than the house has windows.. DOn't tell me thats not intimidating to even the most seasoned hydronic heating contractor. If they just had a map (drawing) showing what componenets go where, they have a better chance at catching a screwup before it became a litigating point.

My vote would be to use the system in place in Van Couver BC. Its been tested and proven to work. Heres a link to their web site. http://www.rhwha.com/pages/news.html

ME

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gerry gill

what would be the focus of the entity?

education? lobbying? research?

DanHolohan

Yes.

Larry Drake_3

RPA thoughts

Here a few things to think about when discussing a new contractor's association:

1. 65% of RPA members are contractors
2. 33% of all the past and present board members are contractors.
3. Contractors have the potential of making up 75% of the RPA Board of Directors. (currently 41% of the board are contractors)
4. A vote of a one man shop has the same weight in the RPA as the vote of the largest manufacturer.

It is simply a matter of committment. The RPA could be a contractor driven organization if the contractors made the comittment. Do the math. The voice is there... you just have to use it.

DanHolohan

I'm thinking of

a hydronics-only contractor/engineer association that would delve into issues beyond radiant, Larry. We'd also be involved with sharing information about older systems, commerical systems, and steam.

It would be very different from the RPA.

We'll see what the lads at Wetstock have to say about my ideas and we'll take it from there. Just running it up the ol' flagpole. ;-)

Thanks for the input!

Ranger

And...

...organizations like R.S.E.S.are die'in...All we wanted to know was how does it work and how do we repair it properly?!

Unknown

It's a good idea, but I have to say if the goal is to build an organization for the betterment of the industry, even contractors have their biases. Namely toward products that reduce reliance upon contractors.

If this is an organization intended to enhance contractor prowness I think it's a great idea and you've already started it here on The Wall. If you're thinking more like an advisory/investigative organization that would do things like lobby for codes and the like, well, contractors aren't any less biased than anyone else. Look what the unions do in MA for a prime example.

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DanHolohan

Main goals would be

to have contractors and engineers share knowledge and opinions about hydronic systems and products with other Wethead professionals (and to do this in private), to advise manufacturers on their product performance in the field, to promote hydronics of all types to the general public, to do charitable works from time to time, and to have a whole lot of fun along the way.

Membership required, but there would be no dues or membership fees. I've figured out a way to fund all of this without needing either that or corporate sponsorship. I'm looking forward to hearing what the group at Wetstock V thinks about this part of the idea.

More to follow in Providence. We'll run it up the flagpole there and see if anyone salutes. Fun stuff!

John Abbott

One.........

of your better ideas Dan I am looking forward to discussing it.

John

Mike T., Swampeast MO

Sounds like a GREAT table

Wish I could be there to listen...

Unknown

Let's just see how this idea turns out.

interesting proposition. As allways Mr. Holohan is constantly thinking outside the (box).

Gary

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Dale Pickard

Good idea

Sounds like a good idea, Dan. I have often thought that the RPA should have focused on hydronics and energy efficiency and not strictly on radiant panel heating.

Where I may disagree is with the notion that such a group should be "private" or that any useful information developed would not be made entirely public. The buying public needs to be aware so that the natural market evolution of heating products and techniques can take place as rapidly as possible.

Dale

Unknown

Seats to fill.

I'll be talking to one of the best new plumbers I've ever met this week. He does lots of High end plumbing & all baseboard heating & boiler installs as well and let's just say " not as well as he could with Wet Head knowledge ". He's got six guys and I'd like tot take them ALL to Wetstock. I'm buying if they would only confirm. Trying to lead a Big horse to water,,,,

Let's see; Anyone want to talk to the Best & Brightest minds in the Hydronics industry? WETSTOCK RI !!!


Follow the link above in Books & more.

STEP RIGHT UP !!!


Gary

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DanHolohan

It's a smaller than normal group

but they're coming in from all over the country and they're some of the sharpest people I know. It's going to be a different sort of Wetstock, one where we can delve into what I think are some pretty juicy possibilities.

See you there, Gary. Thanks.

Unknown

wetstock

Dan,

Sounds like a great Wetstock..... wish I could be there.

I'll be at Giants Stadium with my sons.... they are both very active in their marching band so I'll be under the lights at National USSB Marching Band Comp!

They won;t be kids much longer and I have to take advantage of the Dad time:-)

wheels

ScottMP

Theres a man

who has his prioritys correct !

Dan I am trying to get some of my other guys to come beside Chris and I.


Scott

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