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CO 2004-5
Mark Hunt
Member Posts: 4,908
Folks poisoned by CO, and no-one knows why.
http://www.thewbalchannel.com/news/3830254/detail.html
Buy the testing equipment and get trained.
Someones life depends on it.
Mark H
<A HREF="http://www.heatinghelp.com/getListed.cfm?id=238&Step=30">To Learn More About This Professional, Click Here to Visit Their Ad in "Find A Professional"</A>
http://www.thewbalchannel.com/news/3830254/detail.html
Buy the testing equipment and get trained.
Someones life depends on it.
Mark H
<A HREF="http://www.heatinghelp.com/getListed.cfm?id=238&Step=30">To Learn More About This Professional, Click Here to Visit Their Ad in "Find A Professional"</A>
0
Comments
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Oh Canada!
Again, source unknown.
http://www.canada.com/calgary/calgaryherald/news/story.html?id=eef33265-2a21-4dce-9114-5cfd2400de05
We can virtually eliminate this folks.
Mark H
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Ahhhhhh, the \"faulty furnace\" strikes again
http://www.whiotv.com/news/3827813/detail.html
No-one died, even though no-one tested.
Mark H
To Learn More About This Professional, Click Here to Visit Their Ad in "Find A Professional"0 -
interesting
that they call it a leak. CO is not a natural byproduct of complete combustion.MAkes it sound like people a re storing bottles of the stuff.
It sad that people don't know better including many heating "pros"
Did a call where the HO says previous 2 (!) techs couldn't figure out why the roll out tripped. reset and observed the flame blow out a good foot (!) when the blower kicked in. Looked into the H.E. and found a crack 16" long that I could put my hand through! How they missed it I do not know. Sheer STUPIDITY from those "pros" (and I am using that term very loosely)
Annual maintenance is what I tell people (not advise anymore) get me or anyone else, but do it. This can be prevented with education and training.
Here goes another year.0 -
Mike
I would suggest that they ONLY call you!
The other guys missed it, YOU did not.
You're a lifesaver.
Mark H
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You know
it is scary the number of guys who could miss that though. I also teach troubleshooting to new and experienced techs, and am constantly amazed and how ignorant some "pros(?)" are.
It was pretty easy to notice that when the blower came on the flame blew back (a good foot!)
Hello! McFly?? you in there? They said one tech pulled the burner to inspect that....why??
Its not only stupid...Its SCARY. I liken it to drunk driving..you have the potential to kill people.
I have your "potential cure for CO" and it is distributed religiously. I have seen to much of this and I agree that education is one of many keys to this issue. (for HO and contractors) and I try to do both.
Keep up the good work Mark. You save many lives. people who read all your CO posts will at least think..."maybe there is something to this"
I tip my hat and raise my glass to you!
Salute!
Mike0 -
more on CO
I hand this out many times a year to educate and inform. I also tell customers that most of the detectors available at the big box stores just don't cut it - and refer them elsewhere.
http://www.cmhc-schl.gc.ca/en/burema/gesein/abhose/abhose_ce25.cfm?renderforprint=10 -
good one
I am going to start using it too. Thanks for the tip.
I have a post here named exposure limits if anyone is interested.
Mike0 -
Chicago church
http://www.clickondetroit.com/news/3847981/detail.html
Unfortunately, there are more coming after this.
Get trained, get testing!
Mark H
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DC, source?????
http://www.nbc4.com/health/3846023/detail.html
No source listed, wanna' make a bet?
Mark H
To Learn More About This Professional, Click Here to Visit Their Ad in "Find A Professional"0 -
CO alarm doesn't sound
Here we go again.
http://www.thejournalnews.com/newsroom/102804/b0128monoxide.html
Mark H
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Sounds fishy
6 people killed by CO when car is left running in a garage.
Happened in Florida.
http://washingtontimes.com/upi-breaking/20041029-120133-8535r.htm
Mark H
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WHAT!!!
Why the H**L is there an intake for the duct system in the freakin GARAGE!!!
I cant believe my eyes when I read THAT! Another than could have been prevented.
sad0 -
Read this story!
I want to point out what the Fire Officials say.
http://kvoa.com/Global/story.asp?S=2528896&nav=HMO6Sp6W
"Andy Ellsworth, from Coyote Cooling and Heating, says, "You don't want any carbon monoxide. Anything over 10 parts per million is going to be a problem. Any good quality detector should set off an alarm at that point."
There is one small problem with this. Alarms that comply with UL 2034 CANNOT AND WILL NOT ALARM AT THAT LEVEL!
Mark H
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Seven poisoned
Here again, a Fire Official is passing on misleading information. He says that "anything over 50ppm can be lethal if exposed over a period of time". Well that may apply to a middle-aged adult, but it DOES NOT apply to the two-month old that lives in that house.
http://www.shreveporttimes.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20041106/NEWS01/411060334/1002/NEWS
Mark H
To Learn More About This Professional, Click Here to Visit Their Ad in "Find A Professional"0 -
Man killed in Seattle
And again we see officials recommending UL "tested" alarms.
http://seattletimes.nwsource.com/html/health/2002083733_monoxide06m.html
Mark H
To Learn More About This Professional, Click Here to Visit Their Ad in "Find A Professional"0 -
But Mark,
> And again we see officials recommending UL
> "tested"
> alarms.
>
> http://seattletimes.nwsource.com/html/h
> ealth/2002083733_monoxide06m.html
>
> Mark H
>
> _A
> HREF="http://www.heatinghelp.com/getListed.cfm?id=
> 238&Step=30"_To Learn More About This
> Professional, Click Here to Visit Their Ad in
> "Find A Professional"_/A_
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But Mark,
at this time, what else can they advise? I agree that the UL listing is not designed to protect individuals at low level exposure, but, from a standpoint of what an agency or municipal department can recommend, I believe that it would be quite difficult to advise something contrary to the standards in force. This comes back to the whole issue of how best to protect people. I deal with this regularly in my job. Before OSHA, I was in private industry providing safety solutions to industrial customers that were designed to be up to "best safety practices", but when I got to where I am now, I am limited to enforcing minimum safety regulations. Bottom line is when it comes to CO, protecting people from acute exposures is where the regulatory agencies will be most inclined to draw the line. If you recall from years ago, fire departments responding to seemingly false (low level) alarms created such problems that the UL is what it is today. The challenge is to so convincingly present the data (and I do mean data because that is what "officials" thrive on) that there is no compelling reason not to make a change in the standards.
Quite frankly, I continue to think that this is definitely an uphill battle. Perhaps local codes should require CO alarms in all dwellings and the number of deaths might drop.
Thank you for all your efforts.
Larry0 -
Elderly woman killed in Nevada
"Faulty water heater".
http://www.krnv.com/Global/story.asp?S=2536810&nav=8faOSssO
Mark H
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Education
is the key here.
We aren't just talking about "code enforcement", there are some dangerously false statements being made by "officials".
UL-2034 keeps fire departments from getting CO calls, it does not and was not designed to protect people. It is standard that allows a CO alarm to wait up to 239 minutes before it alarms at 70ppm. Almost 4 hours. That might not be lethal for some, but it could just kill an infant or an elderly person.
Even alarms with the digital display are forbidden to display anything under 30ppm.
Yes, this is an uphill battle. But someone's got to do it.
I appreciate all your help!
Mark H
To Learn More About This Professional, Click Here to Visit Their Ad in "Find A Professional"0 -
I respectfully disagree
Larry, the false alrams from years ago (particularly in Chicago) had absolutely nothing to do with alarms being sensitive to low levels of CO.
They had everything to do with cheap sensors (Metal Oxide) that were cross sensitive to a multitude of common household cleaning and hygene products as well as high/low humidity levels - even latex paint.
The Gas Research Institute did a study in 1999 that found 38% of the alarms they purchased from retail outlets failed, and when the test button was pressed, all indications were that the alarms were functioning properly - because all UL requires of the test button is that the buzzer works.....
Yes, that study was done 5 years ago. However, a Grand Rapids news broadcast this past spring found pretty much the same thing. They purchased 8 alarms and we tested them by placing them under the exhaust pipe of a car. Of the 8, only 5 went into alarm (and my test instrument maxed out at 2,000ppm).
Yes, I would agree to the argument that requiring a UL approved alarm is better than nothing, my main beef is that by not allowing an alarm that superceds the standards is a very serious problem.
If you haven't seen George Kerr's website (www.coexperts.com), you need to spend some time there. It really opened my eyes to some serious issues.
I have two of his alarms in my own home, for two years now and they have performed flawlessly.
I also recently recieved a new low level one from NCI, it also appears to provide true protection.
The UL approved alarm I had before, I now use during CO training seminars to demo how worthless it is.....
Like Mark reminded me recently, CO poisoning is the hands down number 1 cause of accidental poisoning in this great country of ours, this may be an uphill battle but it's one I think is worth fighting for...
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I respectfully disagree
Larry, the false alrams from years ago (particularly in Chicago) had absolutely nothing to do with alarms being sensitive to low levels of CO.
They had everything to do with cheap sensors (Metal Oxide) that were cross sensitive to a multitude of common household cleaning and hygene products as well as high/low humidity levels - even latex paint.
The Gas Research Institute did a study in 1999 that found 38% of the alarms they purchased from retail outlets failed, and when the test button was pressed, all indications were that the alarms were functioning properly - because all UL requires of the test button is that the buzzer works.....
Yes, that study was done 5 years ago. However, a Grand Rapids news broadcast this past spring found pretty much the same thing. They purchased 8 alarms and we tested them by placing them under the exhaust pipe of a car. Of the 8, only 5 went into alarm (and my test instrument maxed out at 2,000ppm).
Yes, I would agree to the argument that requiring a UL approved alarm is better than nothing, my main beef is that by not allowing an alarm that superceds the standards is a very serious problem.
If you haven't seen George Kerr's website (www.coexperts.com), you need to spend some time there. It really opened my eyes to some serious issues.
I have two of his alarms in my own home, for two years now and they have performed flawlessly.
I also recently recieved a new low level one from NCI, it also appears to provide true protection.
The UL approved alarm I had before, I now use during CO training seminars to demo how worthless it is.....
Like Mark reminded me recently, CO poisoning is the hands down number 1 cause of accidental poisoning in this great country of ours, this may be an uphill battle but it's one I think is worth fighting for...
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Mark
Education is absolutely the key.
The UL-2034 I believe, was intended to protect people, (just not everyone). My experience with regulatory agencies is that rule making is almost always a compromise between the various factions. Just so you understand, I am in NO WAY making excuses for the state of affairs that we currently have. I am a supporter of your efforts 100% and I share your sentiments that a lot more needs to be done. What I have seen in other areas is that small steps may be more easily accomplished than what would clearly be the best solution. The problem is that the time that lags between something and everything causes more hardship for the public. Without the efforts of people like yourself, the already high numbers of tragedies would be even greater.
Don't stop (like I have to tell you that). Please allow me to occasionally provide the devil's advocate position as I think that by providing contrasting positions, we are able to more clearly articulate our positions. When you make your case before Congress, you've got to have it all together.
Larry0 -
I know
that you believe this is an important issue.
I really do appreciate your posts!
Mark H
To Learn More About This Professional, Click Here to Visit Their Ad in "Find A Professional"0 -
Rudy
I stand corrected regarding the early CO alarms. I don't make any claims to be as informed about this as it may have appeared.
I am in complete agreement that the test button is a complete waste and provides a false sense of security. The challenge continues to be how to change the minds of the powers that be. Rule makers get tugged from many directions and the one with the strongest pull generally decides where these things land. Consider the post that Mark shared recently about the politician's family members that died. Where is this issue right now on capital hill where someone might be able to do something about it? I don't know, but I'd bet it is nowhere.
Here in Minneapolis there was also a news clip very similar to the one you describe. At least a dozen CO alarms that were 3, 4, or 5 years old were tested in a sealed room with auto exhaust piped in. Several thousand ppm in very short order and it took forever for many to alarm and since that broadcast, I am sad to say that I know of nothing that has changed.
It appears that the challenge continues to be not only education, but ensuring that the products that reach consumers actually function as intended.
Out of all the incidents that we read about, how many had CO alarms at all? How many law suits have been filed against the makers of these products because they failed to respond to high levels? Follow my drift? While I too would like to solve this problem in the best possible way, what can we do NOW that will save lives? I just read an article today that talked about education being the key to enhancing safety in the workplace. Education, on more than one front, I believe, is the most important step to take to reduce these deaths.
(Yes I have been to the coexperts site and found it very informative.)
Thank you for all your efforts and providing knowlege to me any many others.
Larry0 -
All CO deaths
All CO deaths in the past 10 years at least in my area are from cars left running in garages, people in AJOINING apts are killed because the multi unit buildings aren't sealed too well and so little CO is all that't needed for a death. On the "non accidental" deaths the person planning to die often shuts the door to the attached garage thinking that will keep the rest of the family safe, the rest of the family deaths are the most tragic.0 -
False Alarms
According to documents there were 3 popular Alarms in Chicago at the time-First Alert(alarm level 15ppm), Nighthawk(alarm level 30ppm), & American Sensors(alarms level 100ppm). The false alarm report showed all 3 alarms
were false the same percentage. Further investigation by some of my students discovered that the main diagnostic equipment being used by the fire departments and utilities were Glass Tube Testers and Tif Gas Leak Detectors. Bad Alarms/Bad Investigations? Hopefully these situations will never be repeated.0 -
Mark
I was just going to post that story when I saw your thread. If the woman was "waiting for a part" why oh why didn't the service tech warn her of the dangers of staying there? Oh never mind, I think I know the answer...0 -
Building evacuated THREE times!!!!!!
Now they think they got it figured out?
http://www.citizen-times.com/cache/article/news/70650.shtml
Schools are a VERY dangerous place.
Mark H
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Scratching my head on this one.....
Which furnace has a safety feature to shut it down if CO is seeping out?
http://www.kotv.com/main/home/stories.asp?whichpage=1&id=72333
Lots of bad info out there.
Mark H
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Found the cat face down in the litter box
Didn't mention whether they used Tidy Cat or Fresh Step? Blockage in the 11 year old furnace!! Where are the safeties???0 -
Lets stick a needle in then a see if the qualify
Nursing supervisor said they have to have a blood gas test first before they are allowed in the hyperbaric chamber!!!
All exposures need this treatment becuase CO continues to do damage for hours!!! Wonder if they get to study first?0 -
Fifth school this month
Home schooling might be sounding better everyday!0 -
Somebody has to start teaching people about CO!
A family decides to grill indoors! Paramedics are poisoned as well!
If you attend no other class this year, PLEASE get to a class on CO and combustion!
http://www.komotv.com/stories/34112.htm
Mark H
To Learn More About This Professional, Click Here to Visit Their Ad in "Find A Professional"0
This discussion has been closed.
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