CO info, please help JohnNY.

Nick W

I've got a customer with a forced draft boiler sharing a chimney with a natural draft <a href="http://www.serverlogic3.com/lm/rtl3.asp?si=0&k=water%20heater" onmouseover="window.status='water heater'; return true;" onmouseout="window.status=''; return true;">water heater</a>.
Over the summer, I witnessed a serious flue spillage problem for the obvious reasons.
At that time, I disabled the boiler and the customer informed me that they new it was no good as it was and that they were in court with the specifying engineer who spec'd the system.

I know. This is getting ugly. Everybody run.

The problem is I can't run a way from this now because I'm the last person who touched it.

The client is waiting for the insurance company to issue a check for the work to be started but the boiler was put into service by the A/C contractor who told them everything was fine. The check is probably a month away.

Funny thing is, I went and checked for spillage again and everything was venting alright except for a bit of spillage during pre-purge.
It was not like that the first time I checked. It was more like nothing at all coming out of that boiler was reaching the chimney outlet. I guess the problem goes away when the chimney warms up, but I have no idea how long that takes.

So I left my NSI CO detector in the boiler room and came back the next day. The detector read 10ppm in its memory.
I have to write a letter now to all concerned parties but I'll have a tough time explaining why all the hoopla over 10ppm.

Any advice?

Anything I can print and include with my letter espcially pertaining to the fact there is a baby in the house?

Mark Hunt

John


Can anyone guarantee that 10ppm is all that will spill into that home?

No.

The fact is, flue gases are spilling into the home.

Sort of like asking "how much poison can you drink safely?"

Do not forget that chronic CO exposure has been linked to countless adverse health problems, including S.I.D.S.

Infants will succomb to low levels of CO and that is medical fact.

E-mail me if you need more help.

Mark H

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Unknown

Try George Kerr

from Co-Experts he has some good information in print that may help. e-mail gekerr@tds.net or phone 417-426-5504.

Mark Eatherton1

No CO leaking ino the house is good CO....

I concur with the other Mark. Spillage of products of combustion should not be tolerated, even for just a few minutes. What's it going to do on a bad inversion day? What other things have influence on the pitiful draft. I'd call in the BIG DOG (Jim Davis) as an expert in the matters to clear yourself of any potential liability.

Waking up dead or brain damaged is NOT a good way to start the day.

Call in THE expert.

ME

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Unknown

We need to be careful here

if we are going to shut off every piece of equipment that has some spillage at time of start up we are going to shut off a lot of equipment especially gas equipment.

I am just as concerned about CO as anyone else here on this site but over reaction can create some real problems.

A number of questions came to mind when I read this post, it is a touchy situation as lawyers are involved so let us be very careful what we say. Better to communicate by e-mail.

I am going to go on record here in saying that in over 40 years of working on gas equipment that spillge on start up is sometimes impossible to stop. It is the very reason why we need to combustion test and set equipmnt up correctly.

By the way it is not always the case that fan assisted equipment can not be vented with natural draft equipment. The NFPA code allows it. Does that mean it will always work NO it does not that is why we need to TEST, TEST, TEST.

If after start up the equipment will not stop spilling then we have a problem. It also shows that on different days at different outdoor temps and other atmospheric conditions things can change. This is why we have to adjust equipment to as best we can compensate for those variables.

I am sure Jim will be able to give you some good direction Johnny. He can be reached at jimd@nationalinstitute.com or at captainco7@aol.com. You can also feel free to give me a call at 401-437-0557.

Brian_24

You need to install barametric controls with spill switches. You need to use a manual reset on the water heater then if it trips you know you have issues. Jim Davis has drawings and specs for this fix. I have used it many times with great results. Good luck,
Brian

Nick W

Gateway P&H

I'm thinking the best course of action would be to pressurize the room with a forced air intake fan.
Isn't that the best way to handle it? At least temporarily?

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Brian_24

NCI has a formula for calculating how much combustion air is neededdepending on your method of introducing it. However you can make your problem much worse by causing an air curtain over the draft hood of your water heater. This is why I prefer to install barametrics with spill switches. This lets you control the draft and makes the install much safer because the spill switches shut it down if there are problems. jmho.
Brian

Rudy

Stick to your guns

Ten ppm is too much. It shows two things - CO is being produced and there is a direct path for CO to reach the occupants of the building.

For some additional 'printed' info check out Dr. Penney's CO website. Lots of good stuff: http://www.coheadquarters.com/CO1.htm

Also, George Kerr's website has alot of info: http://www.coexperts.com .

At a minimum you should suggest that these folks get a "low level" CO monitor. Both CO-Experts and NCI have ones that provide 'true' protection.

I have two of these low level alarms in my own home and travel with another - all the rest are simply junk.....

JMHO, rudy

Mark Hunt

Good call Brian

"How much positive pressure is enough, and how much is too much?"

I was told that a big water heater manufacturer will no longer allow their product to be common vented with a fan assisted appliance.

I have found more that spill than draft.

Now think about this. The "fan assisted" unit is supposed to have a pressure switch that will not allow the unit to fire in the event of a flue blockage. However, if it is commonly vented with an atmospheric appliance and the flue system is blocked it will then happily vent through the atmospheric appliance draft hood.

As for spill switches, you need more than one on any appliance. Who's directing the flue gas to the switch? It can spill out on the opposite side, I've seen it happen.

Mark H

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Jim Davis_4

spillage

John,
Chronic low level CO is hazardous. I have seen this type installation 100's of times and the problems are intermittent. In one case it only took the home to 100ppm every couple of months. The other times it was much less but if you are not there on the bad day then the problem is not even detected. This installation has a second unsafe condition and that is that the boiler would continue to operate and vent out the water heater if the flue was plugged. 99% of the time most people don't have a clue on how to diagnose this problem. If the flue is already warm it may not show up at all. I consider it one of the most unacceptable and unsafe installations today!

Nick W

Gateway P&H

Nick W

Gateway P&H

Thank you all who've responded to my post. With your permission, I'd like to print your responses and include them in my file for review by all concerned parties.

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