Heres the scenario

tommyoil

I'll try to keep this brief so here goes. Had new account call for oil delivery. Homeowner called. Company sent manager to check out indoor tank (275) for its integrity. Manager says "good to go". This past Saturday H.O calls for delivery. Dispatch sends truck with very experienced delivery man to deliver. They instruct him to fill the 275. Driver delivers, hears ventalarm,alarm stops, tank full. Next stop(where I happened to be doing service) he shows me a meter that has 324 gallons displayed and asks me what I think.He informed me that he banged on the door try to get in to see what was up but nobody was home. He also has already called dispatch to see if maybe its a 550 and they tell him the records indicate that its a 275. After about 3 or 4 hours the homeowner calls to say theres oil all over the floor. Turns out a gas boiler was installed and the installer left the tank in place but disconnected the supply line from the bottom of the tank without closing the valve. We were NOT the installers. Tank emptied on the floor and now the company is attempting to hang the driver out to dry. In anyones estimation, who will be left holding the bag. I say ultimately it will be the installer who left the tank in such a condition. 324 gallons into a dirt floor.Even the delivery ticket says that driver/company is responsible only to the connecting point.Any leaks ect. will be the responsibility of H.O. Will that disclaimer hold any weight in a courtroom? I'm trying to help my buddy here and get him absolved of responsibility. Please, any comment will be greatly appreciated. Thanks.

Unknown

Are you saying it was the wrong house

he delivered to ? Or did the homeowner ask for a delivery of oil , forgetting he switched to gas ?

Matt Clina

It sounds like

If the manager went in to inspect the tank, then he must bear some responsibility here. Did he not notice that the tank had an open tube coming out the bottom? The driver was relying on his boss's inspection of this tank. I give the driver no blame.

I also agree that the HO is mostly, if not completely, responsible if they called for an oil delivery and they have a gas boiler.

I don't think you can blame the guy who replaced the boiler, although he would have been smart to plug the bottom of the tank or tag the fill pipe.

tommyoil

No

Right house, right address, right tank. New homeowner who thought he had oil heat (It still says it on the C of O.) H.O called for delivery to a tank which management approved for delivery. Now, with the spin dept in full swing, the driver is looking like the scapegoat which, to me, is just plain wrong. I say its the installer who left a hazardous condition and the idiot manager who o.k'd the tank. NOT THE DRIVER.

Bob Bona_4

the key question is

at the time of the manager's tank inspection, was the original boiler still there and operational?

If it was, I would think that the responsibility lies upon the homeowner first, to notify the oil company to terminate delivery, then the gas installer second, to leave the site in a safe condition.. The oil company doesn't have a crystal ball..

What's strange here is the HO set up an oil account, then changes to gas, seemingly quickly, then calls for more oil, presumably knowing he's getting, or has, a new gas boiler installed.

Is there more to this story than meets the eye?

Unknown

You are right

If any one did their part correct - homeowner , manager , installer - oil would not have spilled . What did the manager go in there with blinders on ? I hate to say it , but if a company rep was down there and gave the OK , I bet his company is gonna be footing the bill .

Going into a home to look at the oil tank is not normal operation for a driver , I can't see him being to blame at all . Does he belong to a union ? I bet they'll fight tooth and nail on this one . Wish your friend well for me , what a crappy situation to be in , when it's not his faut .

tommyoil

Dummys

Theres plenty of stupid to go around here. The H.O claims he thought he still had oil as thats what he was told. He just, and I mean just moved in. Also the manager I guess didnt check the boiler. I dont think he would know a gas boiler from the Easter bunny.

tommyoil

Yes

We are union.

J.C.A._3

My finger is pointed at....

The only one who could POSSIBLY be blamed for this, THE INSTALLER of the gas equipment. One of the things that should be done when taking a tank off line is to REMOVE or PLUG the fill pipe to a disconnected tank.(In Ma., it's the law!)

It would take at least three hands to count the number of fill connectors I've removed and plugged because the oil tank was no longer being used. Drivers make mistakes, houses are sometimes numbered oddly and last but NOT least, the guy who took the tank off line HAS A RESPONSIBILITY to see that oil CANNOT be pumped into that tank.Bottom line. The insurance company WILL be looking for someone else to pay for this. The driver is more likely going to be the scapegoat but it still seems to me that the installers lack of "safe and proper practices" caused this fiasco and he should be the one holding the bag. Chris

Unknown

I would agree , but

his manager was there , scoped out the oil tank to make sure everything was copesthetic . I would think looking over the heating system would be included at that point . But like Tommy said , this manager sounds heating impaired . Agreed , the installer should have capped off the oil line , at the least . I think you're right Chris , blame is gonna be shared on this one .

lchmb

oh boy

I agree with J.C.A on this one. The only added suggestion I could make to the driver would be the next time to call for emergency service's. If it end's up your wrong, you buy a lock. If your right your the hero.
Maybe a little late, but the company I work for has two driver's go out on a first fill. One driver in the cellar to inspect and verify the other with the truck. It may be a pain but you have people who have a clue what they are looking at and can solve some of these problems...
As to who will be held responsible, the guy with the deepest pocket's I'm afraid to say. Just tell the driver to stick to his guns. Shy of being a psychic there is no way he could have known. And he did make the attempt to get into the house and when he checked with his office this should have sent bell's and whistle's off there. Good luck!!

Constantin

Two folks at fault here...

... number one, whoever disconnected the oil tank from the fill pipe. That move was not necessary to install the gas equipment. If the installer was going as far as remediation (i.e. draining the tank) then he/she should have either disabled the fill (tag/plug/etc) or reconnect it to the tank. Leaving the pipe hanging freely was grossly irresponsible.

What I'd also like to know is how the manager overlooked a disconnected fill pipe.

IANAL, but I doubt the driver will be found guilty of any kind of mistake considering that he delivered oil to the right house, etc.

tommyoil

Make no mistake

THE FILL WAS CONNECTED HERE. The tank got filled. The oil valve on the bottom of the tank was left open and dis-connected Oil spilled from the bottom of the tank from the fusible valve. I agree with Chris in that the installer should be held accountable.

jackchips_2

I'm with you

Chris. Also, it sure looks like a drive by done instead of the manager going inside.

As someone else mentioned, there's more to this than what is being said. Also, whoever heard of a driver going inside to double check unless he's told to.

tommyoil

Jackchips

All the cards are on the table here. Theres nothing left out to wonder about. If theres some mis-interpretation of what I have described, please comment and I will try to clarify.

tommyoil

Are we in agreement

that the driver should be last on the list of blame???

Bob Bona_4

no problem

with interpreting your post, Tommy. What this boils down to is failure to follow through-on the HO's part, and the gas guys.

I'm just curious why those two didn't cover their six. Timing is everything, and I'd like to know if oil was in service at the time of the manager's inspection. If it was, then he is off the hook.

I feel for the poor driver. He was performing his job per usual.

lchmb

I agree

J.C.A._3

Sorry Jackchips,

The Installer of the gas equipment still has to make it known one way or the other that the tank is no longer on line. As a matter of rule, I first tell the homeowner to call their oil company and cancel any further delivery. Been there, done that had the guy hooking up the hose as I was taking out the old oil boiler. (Matter of fact, we had a company around here that purposly made deliveries to known homes, so he could charge them for the delivery AND the subsequent removal of said delivery.Anyone working on the north shore of Ma. will tell you who they are, as well as the attorney generals office and BBB of Ma.).

Common sense ain't so common, is it? Chris

Steamhead

Tommy, we talked about this at the NAOHSM seminar

I think you're right, though the lawyers will do their best to get everyone who was involved. It sounds to me like the driver was the one that noticed the problem first with the abnormally large delivery.


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jackchips_2

I agree

the driver should not be held accountable tommy but here are my questions:

What is in the managers report or was it just verbal?

How much oil was in the tank?

What was the driver doing while his pump went "at least" 49
gallons over? More depending what was in the tank.

What is in the homeowners inspection report, if he had one done, before buying the house in regards to the type of system, the tank, etc.

What is the Oil companies SOP before pumping into a new customers tank?

What is the Unions SOP before pumping into a new customers tank?

Sorry, got carried away. I am NOT being critical, just inquisitive. It's from my many years on Town committees where we question everything.

Besides, you asked. :-))

tommyoil

Everyone involved will swing for this one

Yup. This driver is on the ball. A true pro at what he does. I feel bad because the company is making him sweat it out. Since we are a company of approx. 17,000 account and have the deepest pockets I'm sure it will be us to foot the bill. Isn't that usually how it works?

tommyoil

Thank you Jack

and I appreciate all the points you bring up so here goes. I'm quite sure the mgrs. report was on paper. The driver was at the fill controlling the nozzle in sync with the functioning ventalarm. No oil was in the tank before the delivery because the bottom valve was left open and as soon as he began to pump oil began spewing from the 1/2" bottom tapping. The home inspectors report I cant comment on because I am not privvy to that info. SOP for company is to send a mgr.to inspect BEFORE delivery to verify tank integrity for the driver and the company. Union has no policy that I am aware of other than to do your job to the best of your ability, which he did in my opinion. Thank you again. I do not consider anything here critical. Only helpful.

Constantin

Sorry for misreading that...

...nonetheless, it's the installer who disconnected the old oil feed and then left an open, drainable system in place that allowed a small problem (delivery to an unused tank) to turn into a big problem. That's pretty negligent, IMHO.

However, I didn't even think of the HO who called for an oil delivery in my previous post. Common sense would dictate that a HO who calls for a delivery to a compromised would also be on the hook for the aftereffects.

Given your description of events, I hope that the driver will be let off the hook. Please keep us posted.

Weezbo

Tommy i dissagree. it is the person calling for the oil that

bears the full responsibility for the fornication upwardly.should joe homeowner call for delivery of water and the driver pumps it into a fill tube he Thinks is water once again it is up to the homeowner calling for the delivery to provide accurate information to the delivering company.

Weezbo

a friend connected a tigerloop combo,

while a tank was a bit on the low side he did not cap the other line as it wasnt leaking at the time of the conversion from a dual pipe s/r to the combo....he simply rolled the line back in a couple loops,squeezed the end with some channel locks and pinned it up out of the way with a big electrical staple. sorta the same sh different day.makeing a reasonable guess that it was a below ground tank and all would be well. the deal is now he puts a flare plug on any conversion.so,yah the homeowner is the one who has to bite the bullet buh you can expect his line of thought goes 'Well Theres the guy to blame!right There!''He Touched it Last!'

tommyoil

Thank you all

For taking the time to reply. I will print this thread and pass it on to my buddy. I'm sure he too will appreciate all your efforts.

Tommy

tommyoil

Just got word

The company is attempting to "write up" the driver for not setting the meter to the designated tank size amount. In other words 275 gallon tank means set the meter for 275 gallons. His portion of the blame will be any amount over and above the 275 which ended up on the ground. This is a guy who has a clean record and in my estimation still does. The mgr. who o.k'd the tank for delivery skates. Homeowner skates. Installer skates. I guess its going to be the drivers 50 or so gallons which created the mess and NOT the 275 gallons before that.I hate company politics. They hang us out to dry before any investigating gets done. Investigation is an afterthought. Drivers should now stop delivering to ANY tank without a vent alarm, no plugs in dike tanks, bad gauges, tanks that are not visible ect. I suppose the customers will be looking for other places to buy oil (in droves).

Matt Undy

Aren't ther ecodes requing at very least caping of the outlet and taging of the fill pipe if not removal of the fill pipe altogether? Perhpas bringing in the AHJ who approved it would be a good idea.

What this code says would have a lot to do with how responsible the the installer of the new boiler vs the oil company's inspector is.

Also the driver needs a lawyer hopefully provided by the union.


Matt

Dave Bush

Like setting the meter at 275 would've stopped it from leaking.

tommyoil

While they're at it

Maybe they can "write him up" for the Exxon Valdez. He's about as much at fault for that catastrophe as he is for this.

David_5

Company position

The company position assumes that the tank size is on the ticket. If the size was on the ticket, why would the driver have called the office to find out what size tank they had? This is the managers fault, he inspected the tank to make sure it was ok to fill. It was not ok to fill. Since the house had just been purchased I'm suprised a home inspector missed it, if one was done. The homeowner should also have known what fuel was needed for heating the house. Although nowadays maybe not.
I deliver oil too. We discussed this at work today. I think we need work and home numbers for all oil delivery customers, just in case. If this happens to me in the future I would break into the house. Worst case, we are out a customer and what ever I broke to get in.

My sympathy to the driver

David

Firedragon_4

Sorry for not responding sooner, didn't see my name until

just now.

Looks like you have lots of opinions on this one, but none of them truly count, FACT! It's what happens between insurance companies, the DEP and maybe a judge and jury.

The driver doesn't count, he will get fired if found negligent, possibly lose his HAZ-MAT endorsement and he's cooked, period! He won't pay out money, he's worth nothing, sorry, just the truth!

Now, the companies and insurance companies, they will pay, oh yeah, hang on it's gonna be a tough ride.

Biggest issue is the ventalarm. If the driver didn't hear it he's WRONG! If the company said fill it anyway, they own it.

DEP will split the 21-E costs between the installer (sic-poop job) and the oil delivery firm, sorry that's the way it comes down, 98% of the time.

Again, don't shoot me, I'm just a messenger in court a lot these days, BTW. Most of what I see proves that 'you just can't fix stupid'.

Sorry!

tommyoil

thank you George

The fact is that the vent alarm and fill were still connected. He filled the tank by listening to the alarm(whistle alarm at that) The tank valve on the bottom was dis-connected and left open by the gas boiler installer(whoever he was). The mystery man at this point. I cant see the negligence with regard to the driver.

Firedragon_4

He did his job, FACT!

I drove oil when I started and he did what he's paid to do, anything else the company says is prime bovine fecal matter and just that!

The company needs to refocus and go after the installer, that's the real enemy here, FACT! In addition, if these oil company owners and their trade associations really wanted to make their image look good they would be out there pushing legislation to make these kinds of things an 'environmental felony'.

The oil industry has sat on it's butt way to long about these matters and all they have to show for it are fewer customers and lots of legal bills, but what the hey, it's come down to if the going gets tough, sell out!

Amazing in this day and age managers still try to blame the help for their inabilities, no wonder the morale of most techs is shot-to hell and gone!

EJW

Pre setting the meter

oil tanks never take there full capacity anyway. Most whistles shut off at 8-10 gallons less, some even more. You can preset if the tank is low and you are delivering 125-150 gallons. You can't pre set for a empty tank. The installer should swing for this one. EJW

Weezbo

Exactoid !.......(¡ã.¡ã) the third eye:)

> at the time of the manager's tank inspection, was

> the original boiler still there and

> operational?

>

> If it was, I would think that the

> responsibility lies upon the homeowner first, to

> notify the oil company to terminate delivery, The oil company doesn't

> have a crystal ball..


> Is there more to this

> story than meets the eye?

Guy_5

oil

As an oil man myself, I have to say that it is in no way the driver's fault- he was sent to an approved delivery, went to the right address, and filled the proper tank (as he was told). Just what did the manager look at? As much as I hate to point this out, one of the weakest links in the oil system is the tank outlet.
I guess the only good part of this might be that the delivery driver is in a good position to make a move this time of year.

Dave Ewald

Someone Else to Blame

Don't forget to assign a little of the blame to the previous owner, who allowed a faulty installation and sold the house as having oil heat. If there was a municipal inspector who passed the house for use and occupancy, that was an error, but you will never get a municipality to pay for it. It is completely unsafe and unreasonable, however, to rely on every homeowner to inspect equipment and installations.

From reading my recent homeowner's insurance policy on my new house, it looks as though Pennsylvania may now be forcing homeowners insurance companies to cover oil spills. This was not always the case and almost all insurance companies exclude it if they can.

bob_34

driver blameless

clearly, the driver is the only responsibly acting person in the scenario and is therefor is blameless.