Whaddaya think...

The Wire Nut

Bob (name changed, just in case!) is having a new steam boiler installed in the 5 story apt. building he owns in NYC. He is replacing an old (30 years?) W-M BL-984

He is using his local oil company and that was the only quote he got.

I encouraged Bob to take Dan's seminar prior to signing the contract and he did. He took away a lot of good info and was inspired to measure the connected load and measure A dimensions and all the other good things you're supposed to do....

Amazingly the quote's (using the hunch method) selection of a 9 section Smith (19A?) was close to the calculated connected load...

They started to install the boiler this week, and I got a call from Bob yesterday to ask me (as a loyal and rabid student of Dan's works) about some of the work they were doing... I encouraged him to call the boiler manuf. to ask them what they thought...

I stopped by the install today and this is what's going on...

Two 3" risers come up about 6" above the boiler and are welded to ells. The ells are then welded into a 4" pipe that has about 1/4" slope between the 9 sections! This is all black pipe.

One main take-off comes from the "high" side of the header and they'll drip it down to the wet return about 10' down the line to deal with the condensate. The other take off is at the "low" side by the equalizer. All connections are welded.

The equalizer, new wet return and the Hartford loop are all 2" copper.

I mentioned to Bob that he really needed at least 24" risers, and at least some lenght of piping to the header and that they should not be welded. When he talked to Smith they told him that, although they encourage screw fittings, they're aware that a lot of installations are welded and that it was basically OK!

I mentioned to Bob and the installer that there should be a valve on the Loop and the main so that he can presurize the boiler to skim and clean it. The installer flew into a rage and forcefully indicated that he was "never going to put a valve on the loop, that this was a "pressure system", that he has been doing this for 20 (or 30) years and that he was not going to take any advice from any "50 year old book" ("The Lost Art"!)

I asked him how he was going to clean and skim the boiler and he wanted to know why he needed to skim or clean it. And he could just open the boiler drain valves to clean it... I asked him what the skim tapping was for, and he replied it was for the pressure valve. Which made me wonder what the 1" tapping on the top of the boiler was for....

I backed off as I was never going to be able to have a rational conversation with this guru.

We examined the Smith installation manual and it was pretty thin to say the least... Even my "little" Burnham V83 has more information in just the steam section then in the whole Smith manual. The Smith manual is not clear as to any piping and in one case shows what could be a valve in the Loop, but in another drawing it's not shown. They do show a valve in the main, which is one small good sign... There are no dimensions shown except the 24" risers and the riser (3") and header (4") sizes...

So, what to do... I want to encourage Bob to stand his ground and get them to do it right... Is it right? Is there any NYC regulation that forbids a valve in the Hartford loop and/or the main? Am I right in fearing the short and welded piping? Is all that copper a bad thing?

Bob spoke to the oil company owner and he said he would change it if it "didn't work" but he does it this way all the time... It will work, but man, I think he's going to burn a ton of oil trying to get dry, oil free steam....

Any thoughts?

<A>

Mark Hunt

Post a pic


or two.

Lots of different definitions for "it works".

Mark H

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The Wire Nut

6 for your viewing pleasure...

The ruler is on each of the two risers. The bubble level says it all....

tommyoil

Justified concerns

Yikes ! I see no flanges anywhere. I cant tell by the picture if you have 24" from the waterline to the bottom of the LOWEST steam carrying pipe. It doesn't look it. Do you? Just replaced a boiler in a funeral home (of all places) with welded header piping. Being a funeral home was appropriate I thought, as it was the third boiler killed in five years. Plumber kept blaming the manufacturer and the " low quality iron" used in the casting. Get this, he told the customer that all the good quality iron was being used for the war in Iraq. Thats now in the hands of the lawyers. Anyway, new boiler with threaded pipe. If using a welded pipe set-up, I believe flanges will keep the boiler sections from wrenching apart in a couple of years. It just cant take the stress of zero room for expansion. Not a big fan of welded near boiler piping. Sounds like you know more than the installer. All of your concerns are justified. You CANNOT skim from boiler drains. You are also right to want isolation valves on supply and return. I dont believe its a code issue although I'm not sure in N.Y.C. The 1" tapping in the boiler top is not for the skim. That would be on the side of the boiler. Keep us posted.

Constantin

That's a hilarious setup!

I am a mere homeowner engineer. But the thought of installing a heating appliance with welded connections to the rest of the plant strikes me as a bid to cause some expansion/contraction trouble. Never mind the inability to do anything in there if the plant needs to be disconnected.

Plus, if it was my weld, I would have insisted on a V-groove configuration between pipes instead of straight butt-welds. The former will be stronger than the pipe, the latter will, IIRC, not! Given the considerable size of the pipe, I can only conclude that butt-welding the stuff is quicker and easier than actually threading/installing pipe on site.

Is this a modulating boiler? If not, why not? If I were your friend, I'd consider getting 2 smaller units for redundancy as well as crude modulation. In the meantime, I hope your friend can get his plant fixed to his satisfaction. Trouble is, the current installer has you guys somewhat over a barrel, at least until next summer when the current heating season ends.

The Wire Nut

No flanges...

No, no flanges. Just about 13" between the top of the boiler and the tops of the ells. And the ells are literally welded to the header. There is almost no slope to the header as well...

I checked tonight, and there's lots of controls and wires running amok. But the building now lacks hot water since neither of the boilers are working...

tommyoil

Thats a shame

Looks like trouble. Just because he's been doing it that way doesnt make it right. Call the Manufacturer and ask these same questions and get a reply in writing. Good luck!

jim walls_3

stonehouse

If I'm seeing this correctly in the pictures,the bullhead tees are a concern, even if he drips the high end, the steam needs to leave the boiler and move in one direction the takeoffs should both be on the same end after the taps off the boiler, in other words the sequence should be boiler tap, boiler tap, supply takeoff,supply takeoff, equalizer,,,,,,,,,,,,this keeps the steam and condensate moveing in the same direction. This coupled with the water carry over due to the insufficient height between the boiler and the header, will cause some serious water hammer. This would have been a perfect place for a drop header

oil-2-4-6-gas

.

that should get a Carlin 701 low-high modulating burner or the Carlin 601 (the cheap route no modulation) the Beckett cf 1400 low-high modulating burner if this is a cold start boiler i would recommend a low-fire hold aquastat and for feed water have them tap into the hot water - as well good luck getting the piping fixed ---keep documenting the install --i would also put a level on that boiler i think its a little off

pete_14

stonehouse

by the look of the auto water feed , the header looks at right height. all weil mclain 88&98 series I have done have been welded with flanges on top of toe nipples off top of boiler. I have to agree with jim on piping order though .never had problem with welded joints though. steel will expand whether welded or threaded .

TGAL

Keep these pic's for evidence!!!

Take the wrench from the contractor and tell him to get out. First, you are right about the 24" to header. Second, there is not a single threaded piece of pipe on that header!! Though I am not aginst welded headers(I put one on my boiler but also installed 4 steel unions for expansion. I give this boiler 3 years befor it needs replaceing. Another thing that has become common place is copper equalizers. Call me old fashoned, buy I dont trust copper anywhere on a steam system..I wish your friend luck and keep your advise flowinf to him. He's going to need it.

The Wire Nut

It's running but...

Sorry I haven't responded earlier, but work demands have kept me busy elseware. They've fired it up, and two nights ago water was spitting out of the 4th floor radiators! I checked the sightglass and the water level was just north of Santa's workshop...

I am going to sit down with my friend's brother who has taken 2nd shift during the install to try to come up with a plan of action... My feeling is they should, at least, install some flanges or unions, put a proper slope on the header (what's "proper" anyway?) and move the one take off on the high side to the low side...

They also told him that the smith boiler has an "oblong shape" and therefore doesn't need the 24" high riser. Does this ring true to any of you?

Thanks again...

Jim Walls

Stonehouse

I checked the Smith catalog,,,,,,,the 19 A is 51 1/4" tall & the recommended water line is at 41 1/4", from your pictures it appears the absolute top of the 4" welded ell is 13", which puts the invert (line of water flow) @ around 8 1/2" ,,,,,,,,this places the header @ 18 1/2" above the waterline. Combined with the firing rate, operating pressure & how well the boiler was cleaned,,,,,,Especially with oil in the water, At start-up I see water being carried into the header & takeoffs, boiler goes off on low water, feed valve kicks in, boiler fires water carryover, off on low water , feed valve kicks on & it keeps repeating over & over, condensate returns floods boiler & steam line turns into hot water system.You end up with alot of water hammer,high utility bills,and excessive corrosion @ the water line of the boiler due to constant addition of fresh water