scary news from ish

Kal Row

DIY - electric radiant - just roll out the alumanized and heat wire embeded mesh, lay down your tin-set and tiles and plug it in, comes with build in tstat, and is real cheap, and the operating cost is on par with gas today and will get cheaper as gas goes up, ouch!!!

in general - as gas/oil goes up - electric heat source, look better every day, cause elec util rates will rise slower, cause of bulk fuel purchase, and renewable energy sources used by utililies

so an electric "tankless" water heater, as a heat source may be in your existing hydronic system's future

a little fuel cost rise was good for us, too much, changes everything and all hell breaks loose!!! - like geo-thermal heat pump forced air - will blow away anything we are doing today - dont matter if you have fully condensing slab radiant - comfort wont matter to the customer, if the energy cost is HALF for alternative methods - so our "next generation" boiler is going to be a geothermal liquid chiller/heater heat pump

the piping unions in nyc dont let the GASTITE system in, trying to protect their turf, ok, we will replace them with electricians and have a nice day - technology will out manuver the unions

Dean_7

electricity

This is interesting as a homeowner I did a little research a few days ago and in my area (northwest Lower Michigan) with the increase in propane, natural gas and fuel oil prices the cost advantage over electric heating and appliances has almost completely dissapeared. There was also a news article a couple of weeks ago about the fact that electric heat is again being installed in new construction for the first time in thirty years because of these reasons. How about an electric boiler?

Kal Row

the were more than a few...

electric inline water heaters at ish... times-a-changin

though i still think hydronics is king at the end of the day - with good hydronics, you can use any number heat sources - from solar, to the snowmelt system under the asphalt in the summer to preheat the Domestic Hot Water or the pool,

and the geothermal heat pumps are way more echonomical than direct resistance electric, and solar is always there - so as long as you have a serious hydronic setup - you can do anything from heating to cooling

Ted_9

Im not worried about it. You wont get everyone in the North East to go all electric. Even if we dont use fossil fuels anymore, we will have made advances in solar, geothermal and kinetic(wind) energies using water as the medium for transfering heat.

PATRIOT HEATING & COOLING, INC.

Boston Boiler

I wouldn't jump the gun on electric bumping anything out right yet. Maybe Michigan cost advantage over electric has disappeared but it hasn't where I come from in MA. (with any luck it won't) Electric heat (baseboard) was pretty big around here 30 years ago and then the monthly electric bills started coming in and the wood stoves started coming in right behind them. New construction projects will welcome electric heat with open arms, look at the cost. 12 gge. wire, breakers, line voltage tstats and electric baseboard strips vs. a boiler or furnace plus baseboard or duct work, tank, lines. The home owner could pay for a efficient system within a very short time with what they save in electric bills and then any savings is in their pocket. Think about this, do you sincerely think the electric co. is going to sit back and low ball the other utility co.'s? Have they ever missed a chance to ride any enegy crisis to the max.. Maybe they are loosening the rope long enough for more new construction to move with electric heat to sure up some of the market.

BB

GMcD

But it can't do cooling

Electric radiant hetaing films have been around for a long time. There have been some problems with them in the past and if it is a good, reliable heating grid, then great, but, it can't do dual duty like hydronics can. Once tubes are cast into concrete, you can use them for cooling, too.

Right now the electrical grid are already overloaded in many places, so the electric radiant systems will only really sell where there is cheap and plentiful electricity- anyone know where that can be found? Maybe not right now, but if and when PV panels or other clean electrical sources can be used (wind, etc.) then the electrical heating films might be a viable choice.

Troy_3

cheap electric?

Whats that? We are paying 14cents/kilowatt /hr. The majority of the elec. is generated by burning fossil fuel and then you lose 30-40% in transmission. I'm not too worried that our business is going to the electrician. That is real pie in the sky. the scare has been that most of the elec grid is old and antiquated. Most areas couldn't handle the additional load. And just try getting a new generation plant approved.

joel_19

Two words

No and way. Electric is fossil fuel generated!@!!!!! it would be another story if it was Nuclear or wind but the stupid greenies are trying to BAN wind power and solar (panels don't look historic)in Mass. If oil and gas goes up so will electric. No advantage that I can see.

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S Ebels

The real scary thing.......

The thought of any of the electricians I know doing a heat loss is what scares me!

As far as electrical rates go, I remember what happened in the early 70's to all the people that installed electric baseboard or other forms of heat. There was a period of about 3-4 years where electric was very attractive costwise. That changed drastically when the effects of the oil embargo caught up with the KW suppliers. Electric went from being the same or less than gas or oil, to about double the cost in a matter of a year. It will happen again, there's no way it can't. The power generating industry has not made any breakthroughs in operating costs or efficiency since that time. They are still tied to the price of fuel just like everyone else. It just takes a little longer to follow the price swings.

I wouldn't advise anyone to go electric other than for a very limited area or when there are absolutely NO other choices!

Brent_2

heat pumps

I don't think you will be seeing houses with electric baseboard heat. The new houses still need AC. I think we may be seeing more homes with heat pumps instead of gas or propane furnaces.
Those of you worried about the transmission lines- I think you are forgetting that the peak demand is in the summer when the air conditioners are running. The electric companies are looking for more load in the winter. (At least Philadelphia Electric) That's why they offer a cheaper electric heat rate in the winter.

I think there is a good point made that most of the electricity is produced by fossil fuels so right now long term contracts are keeping the electric costs down. But it is only a matter of time before the electric rates have to go up. I agree partially with that. The thing to remember is the natural gas producers / distributors love a year round gas user which a power plant is.

I have a customer that has a decent size comercial laundry facility. He buys his gas at a very attractive rate because he has a high year round gas usage.

I think the gas heat users will continue paying a high gas rate. How high is the question and I don't think anybody has that answer.

brent

Kal Row

cant do cooling?, you gota be kidding...

in a word "radiant"

a geothermal liquid chiller/heater with mixing valves and glycol solution - will give you the 45f water for the fin-coil in the forced air system - to dry the air, and will also give you 60f water for the radiant panels in the ceiling, it will feel as cold in the house as it does in the supermarket next to the closed door freezers – too cold – at night you will have to bring the radiant up to 70, in fact, in dry climates, you will need a downstream fin-coil with a little hot water, from the hot side of the heat pump to reheat the dried air!!!

That’s the beauty of a liquid heat pump, no energy waste, the hot side heats domestic hot water in the summer – and you can boost the geothermal heat output in the winter with a drain back solar collector pumping into the same ground loop, and you can stage multiple small heat pumps or use Variable Frequency Drives (vfd’s) electronic motor drives to modulate the capacity

And then there are vacuum tube heat concentrators uses in solar and can be used elseware as well, like in even the “cool” flue stream of condensing boilers – as well as thermo-electric cogeneration – where the boiler converts excess heat in to electricity
The possibilities are endless - the days of the just plain-jane boiler are numberd, we have to start pushing this fancy hydronics stuff now if we want to hold the business

And right now most elec utilities are in a position to take the business away from the gas companies – the same ways as the gas people took it from the oil companies – they can low ball the price and wait – we know of course that it’s all lies – but “a” person is smart, “people” are very stupid, they fall for the same stupidity over and over and over…

GMcD

Missed my point

Electric radiant heating mats can't do radiant cooling. However, if you have a "hydronic" radiant system, you CAN do cooling since the pipes are already there in the first place. I'd sure hate to be they guy who tries electric radiant heating in a bathroom, which is one of the most common locations for any kind of radiant floor heat system....

mp1969

Your right!

It is obvious that new systems and marketing schemes will compete with so called conventional systems as fossil fuels become more expensive and scarce. Who better to promote these changes than our utilities who are subsidized monthly by almost all of us.
One of Dan's articles predicted some availability of combination heat power systems for residential applications I believe in 2005. This technology could create many possibilities if it becomes cost effective.
Threats create creative thinking and responses.
Old school thinking and codes that protect labor intensive piping systems etc. only slow down the inevitable. Changes have occurred and changes will occur,if we are not open to positive change we will be left behind.

MP 1969

Firedragon_4

Read this from

www.oiltechtalk.com

Any new oil fired technology comming out soon?

Kal Row

there is no reason why...

an oil burner or even a wood chip burner cant be used to boost geothermal in colder climates during prolonged cloudy weather