Munchkin Problems

Unknown

It is my way of solving problems to make a list of what the problems are.

Then I make them each a topic for study.

Then I try to think of solutions.

As we have had a somewhat negative post about the Munchkin I thought it might do some good to start a thread to list the problems. Then let us try to come up with solutions. Who knows some of those problems may have already been solved.

The folks from HTP can help us out if they want by putting to rest if they can some of these.

Let me also say as long as we are talking about this that my experience with the Heat Transfer Products Company has always been a plus. From the first time I met Dave Davis and all the others it has been a positive experience. They have done something new and it takes time to get the kinks out. Let us give them a chance. I have found that negative responses toward a product have a way of putting them out of business. I can honestly say that maybe some should have been put out of business but there were some that had a good product but a poor support system from within and from without. I hope this post gets good positive responses and does not become a bashing process. Let us be gentlemen and see if we can learn something.

lchmb

good idea

Although I am not a big fan I will agree completely that they will back up their product. I have dealt with very few of their unit's and had one problem unit. I contacted them, after thinking many negative thing's of the unit and was pleasantly suprised at their response.
Although it ended up the customer requested the unit be removed, I do believe it could have been resolved by repairing some issues I saw from the initial installer.
I personally am a big fan of trying the "new technology" that comes on the market. If no one tried anything new then we would still be dealing with 1725 burners....Some will succeed some will not.

Dave Bush

This rant went long. Sorry......

My firm belief, of all things mechanical, is that there are no "bad" units coming from reputable manufacturers in this day and age.

In HVAC, unlike many other fields, there are many, many choices of makes and models, of each different type of system to be had. Previously, or rather, historically, the ones with the biggest marketing bucks on the war. Things are changing, for the better, IMHO.

The Munchkin seems to be a rather prolific little feller in our industry, from the looks of it. With that, there are going to be problems, however, a lot of the problems are caused by lack of knowledge on the part of installers and servicers. This is not your father's Oldsmobile, so to speak.

We experience the same thing, whilst setting air afire in the "other" heating method. Ductwork makes or breaks an air scorching device. If the ductwork is done poorly, the unit won't last, and will exhibit problems that might cause the installer/servicer to place the label "POS" upon a unit that is more than capable of producing the quantity of heat that it was designed to, if installed and serviced properly.

Yet, the moaning and the "we've always installed them this way" mentality sets in, and a unit that works when ABCD HVAC installs it in Aunt Fanny's house, won't work when WXYZ Cooling and Heating puts it in Uncle Ferdinand's bungalow, because ABCD followed the instructions that the manufacturer set forth, by installing the proper size unit, ducting, venting, etc., while WXYZ simply removed Unk's 35 y/o 72% AFUE air burning device, and installed the brand new shiny, 94% AFUE turbocharged Scorcher of Air 10,000, in it's place, without giving a second thought to the ducting. The venting is "easy" ------ 3" PVC to the outdoors. WHEEEEEEEEEEE. That's an EASY one! Of course, no fresh air intake...:( WXYZ spends months and years replacing "bad" parts until the HX fails one day, from condensation, and the vicious cycle starts over, with the same installers calling the new equipment the same names that they called the old stuff.

Meanwhile, Aunt Fanny passes on, and her Nephew and Niece inherit a house with an HVAC unit that has all of it's original parts, and is still producing burned air at 94% efficiency...

One guy loves the things, another hates them. Who's right? Who's wrong? Are the "problems" really with the equipment, or with a lack of comprehension with the installers/servicers? If I had a nickel for every time I walked into a building that had no I & O manual, or service records, I'd have a few bucks.:=} But I often wonder how some of these systems wind up as bad as they are, while others that look identical run swimmingly for years. I still think it all starts out with HOW it is installed.

I refuse to believe that a company such as HTP would ever consider using the public as a testbed for their products. I'm certain that, especially due to consumer skepticism, that any known bugs were worked out long before they released a new product to the public. Sure, things night pop up that didn't in testing, and their might be a recall. Glass houses, ya know? So what, as long as the company handles it in a professional manner, and satisfies their customers, I see no reason to give up faith in the machine. Along the same lines, by the nature of the beast, the units will require parts that were not manufactured by the boiler mfg., but by another party, like motors, blowers, controls, burners, etc. When these items fail, it's not necessarily Honeywell, Fasco, W-R, Beckett, Riello, Blahblahblah that get the brunt of the blame, but the boiler mfg, who simply purchased it, and installed it on their machine.

I think the bast thing for our industry is an open dialog.

I understand the frustration that some gentlemen might feel, hearing the same questions/comments/problesm over and over, but these are what cause things to come into perspective about what the real issues are.

Again, I think it's an education thing. And I also feel that the majority of the equipment mfgs do a fine job with their literature, but, for some reason, that literature is either not being read, or is being misinterpreted somewhere along the line.

Hope I didn't bore your socks off...

clammy

munchkin

I"ve just
about finished my first munchkin install and it's a complete job all new baseboard slant fin 80 and a buderus indirect tank it's been running for 2 weeks and it works great .Ibelieve that you can't just slam these units in there are a beast onto them selves and those who are not used to it and do not read direction and do not follow htp out line for piping will most likely have promblems that does not make this a bad product jusyt a product that need a little attention when installing .And like every thing in life there are those who do not read direction till promblems arise .I've read other posts about munchkin promblems and i know everybody passes a lemon out once in a while but for the money and it's effencey and the quiteness of the unit in it's price range i believe it can't be beati would have used buderus direct vent wall hung but it's not avabale yet peace and just my thoughts peace clammy

hr

Shipping takes a huge toll

on all equipment. As I recall every Munchkin is fired and adjusted on the bench before it leaves the factory.

A lot of shake, rattle, and roll goes on insude that carton before the unit is installed and fired the next time.

HTP, and other manufactures, might include a list of "shipping stress" items for installers to check?

hot rod

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Unknown

Maybe everyone is away

for the weekend. I am hopeing that real problems will be posted that will get us all involved. If it comes down to the complexity of installation and set up then that is a matter of training and experience. The so called "learning curve" of all new equipment if you will. I am anxious to see what we come up with here. It is one thing to complain, and certainly we all have the right to do that, but what I am looking for here is a defining of actual problems so that they can be addressed.

Is it piping?

Is it wiring?

Is it product complexity?

Is it setup?

What is the actual rate of failure?

How many times has it created a no heat or no hot water call?

What actual components have failed and what was the cause?

Help me out here folks I am really interested in finding out as I am teaching this unit to others. It is one of many that we teach or talk about.

lchmb

only one problem boiler

And that involved the induction motor and squirrel cage. This unit also had one gas valve fail but i believe it was indirectly related to being improperly piped and the gas line being to small. Unfortunately I was unable to get the company I worked for to repair the piping issues. I am sure the gentleman from HTP will recall this unit, they wanted nothing more than to make sure it was taken care of. It was located in a restaurant and I believe the demand along with being improperly piped caused it's ultimate removal.
I have personally installed one in a very large demand building, a golf course complex. And other than running out of gas it has never even burped. They love the unit and the fact it is so quiet.
I would like to see the jacket seal a little better. I have found in a couple that they do pull in a lot of dust if in a dusty area and wonder if this could lead to inducer motor failure....:) Have a nice weekend!!

jerry scharf_2

condensate backup

Tim,

One of the recurring themes I have heard spoken of is condensate backup. Perhaps a small condensate trap resevoir with a switch at the top to warn of condensate backup would at least lead people to the problem faster. I'm not sure this should be a lockout, but it's an important event to capture.

I have also suggested logging the last number of faults with a timestamp, just like cars do. Was tolk that engineering complains whenever another function for the 925 is added, and this would require a RTC chip and battery for the board.

Neither of these are specific to the munchkin, I wish all condensing boilers had the former and all computer controlled one had the later.

jerry

rich pickering

No munchkins yet, but a half dozen trinitys. So far most problems relate to flow rates/loads. Doesn't matter how you pipe it, if you have a load less than the firing rate you will get cycling. I think buffer tanks are a must when using them for zoned in-floor.

I've also been told to drill a half-inch hole in the intake if you are subject to -30 or colder to temper the combustion air.

Good system design is critical.

Darin Cook_3

Some very inappropriate comments have been made

have been made about the Munchkin. Adding even more insult to injury is that we have sent customers to this site that we pay $400 a year to advertise on and here is our product getting slammed. We have experianced some problems with a few Munchkins. Those were all on the first run series. Alot of the problems I see posted here are due to the fact that the installing company does not have much experiance with the product and is going through a learning curve. Some other problems are manufacturer related and they have stepped up to the plate to offer assistance.

You must be setting up the boiler combustion with a digital combustion analyzer. HTP tell you the ranges to be in for CO. You must check gas pressure. You must properly size gas lines. You must follow the venting charts. I can plug a laptop computer into the board and find out every thing that has happened. Hours run, how many ignition cycles, error codes, Run time above and below 50%, hours run for domestic hot water and heating, flame rectification strength and more. This is the only boiler I know of with this capability. Alot of the problems can be avoided if the instuction manual is followed. I have seen some improper and poor advice handed out here on the Munchkin. That does not help anyone involved. All of the things you have to do for a Munchkin install, you should be doing on all of your installations for anything. Some people are still set in a 1950's mindset. Tie the copper to it. Water in, water out. It is not quite that simple anymore. As far as customer service, HTP has been second to none in dealing with any issue someone calls about or posts here. In alot of cases people are posting here first with some kind of question instead of going directly to HTP.

Believe me, I 100% understand the frustration of going out on a no heat or hot water call. It is only gas on the fire when you feel it had nothing to do with craftsmanship and is a manufacturer issue. But that was the whole premise of this thread. If you have a problem spell it out and answers will be gotten for you. If you are just going to trash this product, take it somewhere else.






Darin

tim smith

Munchkin problems

Not a rant, but a concern. I have 5 installed with no glitches. But a big concern for us here in the northwest is the gas pressure requirements for the Munchkin. The Munchkin states a minimum of over 7" w.c. might be 8" incoming gas pressure at equip. but dont have specs in front of me. The problem here in northwest is the utility only gives you 6" unless you have a lbs set system. This is a problem for some jobs. Some will work and some won't work reliably. Is there any way for HTP to modify the gas train to deal with the lower incoming pressure from utility. The utility will not budge at this point on there max. supply pressure. I know we can oversize gas pipe to reduce pressure drop but still that leaves you with 5- 5.5"

Unknown

Tim, this has come up in the past

and it is pretty standard across the country for gas utilities to give only 6" W.C. out of there house regulator. I have seen a number of these running with 6" W.C. and it has not been a problem, as long as piping is adequate to the units.

My past experience with equipment which states a higher than supplied pressure for a unit is that providing a large manifold ahead of the unit is usually able to take care of the problem.

Example: You pipe size charts call for 3/4" then run 3/4" up to within 10 feet of the unit then increase to 1" or if you want run 1" all the way. It comes down to going one size above what the charts call for.

I am sure the Munchkin folks can give you what their recommendation on this would be. I hope they pick up on this thread on Tueday and give us some input.

munchkin-man

We have software that can be loaded on to a lap top

that can be pluged in to the controller and will show any and all faults for the life of the control or until it gets reprogramed. This sofware is available if you become Vision certified.. We require this because we have come to realize training is key because of the lack of knowlege some installers have. Some of the lack knowlege is from schools that do not address this type of equipmnet and just plain old I do not have to read the manual because I am too smart type of people we deal with every day. We make our manual as informative as possible and we are continuosly revising it to add the latest info.

Unknown

Condensate backup

is a problem that needs to be addressed on all condensing equipment. It should be alarmed someway I agree and it is one of the first things to check on annual checks, especially if it has been setting all summer, they tend to get this nasty green stuff up in the line and need to be flushed out. Boiler guys have to learn from the AC guys about some of the stuff they have to do as far as maintenance.

munchkin-man

Munchkin will run at 5.5\"no problem provided suficiant volume

is present. I have seen these babies run at 3.0"
The 7.0" is like us saying the speed limit is 55 mph. Every body or most will go 80 mph as do the installers who over vent and undersise gas lines.

Unknown

Lap Tops

> that can be pluged in to the controller and will

> show any and all faults for the life of the

> control or until it gets reprogramed. This

> sofware is available if you become Vision

> certified.. We require this because we have come

> to realize training is key because of the lack of

> knowlege some installers have. Some of the lack

> knowlege is from schools that do not address this

> type of equipmnet and just plain old I do not

> have to read the manual because I am too smart

> type of people we deal with every day. We make

> our manual as informative as possible and we are

> continuosly revising it to add the latest info.

munchkin-man

Very well put Darin, Thanks for your support

Unknown

Lap Tops - how many have one?

In this day and age of computers it is going to become necessary for us all to learn about computers (I still have a lot to learn). Lap tops are not cheap and to have to buy one just for one install may seem to be overkill, but it is not just one job. The laptop can be your friend if you let it. You can use it as a sales tool with customers to show past jobs you installed. It can have all your paper work forms stored in it. In fact troubleshooting information can be downloaded on different kinds of equipment. The possibilities are unlimited.

munchkin-man

Heat Transfer Products is proud of the Munchkin and will be in

the market for many years to come. It is in our best interest to make things right and work with the industry. Like it was stated new technology is a given and is here to stay. We support all of our customers and we are not hiding anything. We welcome debate and suggestions. However in the passed when I have come here I and the company get bashed. It is not fare we are providing the latest tecnology to the industry for the better of all. We are on the leading edg of water heating technology and poud of the fact. So I ask that all have open minds and work with us to provide this industry with the newest technology available. Thanks

Unknown

Jeff, in the other post

you mentioned that many times the "bashing" turns out to be installer error and those are handled privately , as they should be. The problem with those however is that the rest of us are left hanging as to what the solution was. To maybe simplify this I have a question for HTP.

What are the typical errors installers make? I have noted that Burnham, Slant Fin, Utica and others who post here from time to time tend to let us know these things. This is to their advantage as those of us who post here often can come to the manufacturers aid and answer questions some one new to the products asks. I for one bookmark a lot of the previous answers so they can be reposted when the same questions arise again.

munchkin-man

They range from improperly sised gas lines to over venting

or improper venting not with in the specifications, Lack of the proper equipment to look at gas pressure and or combustion gas, not providing proper pitch for the condensate to move freely form the unit. Of course the piping lay outs and not understanding the drawings and trying to reinvent the wheel.

Venting would include exhaust not being pitched to allow the condensate to run back to the unit. Over the specified maximum combined length. This will prevent the unit from reaching full rate thus not meeting the load. Termination of the two vents so that gas recirculation is prevented. The one we see very frquently is when the center pipe of the concentric is not installed causing gas recirc. Theuse of foam core pipe a no no, it has maximum exposure temp of 120 degrees. The exhaust xceeds this. I can go on and on.

Gas lines are not large enough to supply the required btu's to combustion process. The wrong type gas used to feed the unit. The regulator to close to the unit so that it will not be able to regulate. No drip leg installed.

Condensate removal would include pinching off the rubber hose we have on the back of the unit. Not providing pitch to remove the condensate quickley so the unit will run properly. Not suporting the hose so that it hold water at all drups.

Piping; not sising the circulator for head and flow through the coil of the munchkin so that shotr cycling and of flashing is avoided.

There are other mistakes related to wiring and adding on relays.

Hope this helps

Unknown

Jeff, one of those problems listed

is the regulator too close to the unit so it cannot regulate. What regulator are you talking about?

Also what has been the feedback from the field as to your instructions being easy to follow and easy to understand?

ALH_3

Open Discussion

> have been made about the Munchkin. Adding even

> more insult to injury is that we have sent

> customers to this site that we pay $400 a year to

> advertise on and here is our product getting

> slammed. We have experianced some problems with a

> few Munchkins. Those were all on the first run

> series. Alot of the problems I see posted here

> are due to the fact that the installing company

> does not have much experiance with the product

> and is going through a learning curve. Some other

> problems are manufacturer related and they have

> stepped up to the plate to offer

> assistance.

>

> You must be setting up the boiler

> combustion with a digital combustion analyzer.

> HTP tell you the ranges to be in for CO. You must

> check gas pressure. You must properly size gas

> lines. You must follow the venting charts. I can

> plug a laptop computer into the board and find

> out every thing that has happened. Hours run, how

> many ignition cycles, error codes, Run time above

> and below 50%, hours run for domestic hot water

> and heating, flame rectification strength and

> more. This is the only boiler I know of with this

> capability. Alot of the problems can be avoided

> if the instuction manual is followed. I have seen

> some improper and poor advice handed out here on

> the Munchkin. That does not help anyone involved.

> All of the things you have to do for a Munchkin

> install, you should be doing on all of your

> installations for anything. Some people are still

> set in a 1950's mindset. Tie the copper to it.

> Water in, water out. It is not quite that simple

> anymore. As far as customer service, HTP has been

> second to none in dealing with any issue someone

> calls about or posts here. In alot of cases

> people are posting here first with some kind of

> question instead of going directly to HTP.

> Believe me, I 100% understand the frustration of

> going out on a no heat or hot water call. It is

> only gas on the fire when you feel it had nothing

> to do with craftsmanship and is a manufacturer

> issue. But that was the whole premise of this

> thread. If you have a problem spell it out and

> answers will be gotten for you. If you are just

> going to trash this product, take it somewhere

> else.

>

>

>

>

>

> Darin

ALH_3

Open Discussion

I appreciate the open discussion present here. It's not easy to find unbiased articles on products in trade magazines. I am impressed with the civil, productive discussion that occurs here. Untrue allegations may be made about products, but usually the truth is to be found somewhere within the thread. I hope advertising $$ never buys credibility around here.

-Andrew

tim smith

gas pressure

Tim, I have seen these units have problems at 5" wc, I just hope this is not inherant to the Munchies. I really like the little tikes. I just want the units to come out specified that they will run at 5" or above manifold incoming. That way we all feel good about a proper install. Thanks again, Tim.

Steve Eayrs

PLEASE read the previous posts

where some of us with valid Munchkin problems, (i.e. bad blower motors, and other) have gone into great detail as to the nature of the problems. To at this time just simply say that the problems were mostly due to incorrect installs is an injustice.

You will find a long post, (believe it was over 80 messages long!) listing some of these problems. Some at that time thought it was not professional for the problems to be posted, and accused then of incorrect installs. I know there are bound to be some not installed right, but not the ones I worked on.

Thanks to the "Wall" for allowing us to post these problems. I got nowhere with the local rep, until they had pressure applied to them from Munchkins end. I believe this site is the only reason I finally got warrantied for the bad blowers. Thanks!


I'm still not impressed with the boiler, but evidently they are some good guys, who are trying to do things right, since they did take care of the problems. I hope it was just a bad batch of boilers and it does not repeat itself. I will wait and see myself, before I buy any. (the 5 I was involved in, finishing installs started by others, and troublshooting problems, were all bought by others, none who were mechanical contractors) IN OTHERWORDS AS AN OVERVIEW....the rep. was/is my biggest problem.


Steve

Mark Hunt

Open discussion?

First let me state that I work for ME! No-one else.

Advertising dollars have NOTHING to do with this. Anyone can come here and mouth off and you consider it "open discussion"?

My business partner hit it on the head here. WE have had few issues with the Munchkin. I could name MANY other brands that we have had issues with, but I don't bring it here. When I have an issue, I take it to the source. No reps, no suppliers, right to the source!

HTP has done EVERYTHING in their power to fix what was their problem, and is in a continuing battle to fix what is NOT their problem.

Do you have any idea how many posts have been made under "Munchkin problems" when the issue had NOTHING to do with the unit but rather with the installer??????????

So yes I do get ruffled when I see a post that denegrates a piece of equipment I offer when I have no idea as to the level of competence of the complaining installer.

I think HTP needs to double the price of the Munchkin. I gurantee that the number of "problem" posts would drop by 99%.

I remember when I first got involved in radiant systems. Around here it was me and another guy. One day Bob Villa did a show on it, and all hell broke loose. There are many folks that got bad radiant systems, should we ditch all radiant systems?

HTP makes a heck of a boiler, you better be a heck of a company before you offer it. The responsibility is yours.

And on that note, all Ford trucks suck and only Chevy is good.

I have had several problems with my Ford products that I never had with my chevy, so therefor, Ford sucks and anyone that buys a Ford is to be viewed with suspicion.

All you homeowners viewing this should be aware of the fact that if someone offers you a Ford, you should never speak to that idiot again. He obviously has no clue that Ford's suck and only Chevy is good.

Tell ya' what. Let's see some install pics of the "problem" jobs. I've asked before, but no-one bit....hmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmm

seeya' on the other side

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Unknown

I have a laptop but,

It's a Macintosh &,,,

I also have a whole lot more to learn.

Can't do most of the industry specific stuff going on in this field with a Mac. I just bought Virtual PC & hope to run some software I normally could not soon. I wouldn't trade my Mac for any PC.

Being able to plug in a Palm™ (not industry specific) would be even better;-)

I like the fact that the Vision control is sold only to contractors who have been instructed & tested. It's a must with this stuff regardless of the manufacturer.

Gary

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don_42

???

Let me first say that I dont have many munchkin under my
belt,actually I have only one.

Let me give you alittle info of my experience first time in.
I'm reading the installation instruction and then I get to the piping lengend.Here a boiler that calls for lots of flow
and the piping legend shown it as a one pipe system.

I do think there was a mention of pri/sec piping..but what
was said and what was printed for proper piping was not the case.However I did call the munchkin people and they confirm that someone made the mistake on there end and they send me out the proper piping layout.

I also wonder how many boiler went in where they follow the
instruction and had problem because of flow issue.

As I said, I only have one under my belt and that was two years ago.How ever to be fare to munchkin this boiler and
its buffer tank has been working just fine.The only problem
I've had with it was the little trap and clamp coming loose and leaking water on the floor.

What I personally would like to see is some training classes
that are done local thru my distributor.When you're a small
shop it hard to take the time to fly too other parts of the country to get training. Yes I would be willin to pay extra
for this.

Thanks Mr McElwain for starting this thread.

chris_33

Gary

you can use your mac to run almost any windows program available. there are several programs available, one of them is "WINE", I use it all the time!

believe it or not, this program will also run HTP's vision program. and YES, you too can plug your palm in to your mac!!