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Vitobare-pgp

Paul Pollets
Paul Pollets Member Posts: 3,656
Just started this install with an 8/32 boiler and 79g V300 tank. Installing the LLH higher than the boiler allows for low water cutoff. Thanks, Jeff Young, for the trick. I'll post some pics on Sat of the finished piping before insulation. The owner is a painter and finished the boiler wall "perfecto" for the install. Sometimes there's room to move... A 1" 3 way and 26-64 pump will do 5000SF with Gyp overpour on 2 levels. The home is 25 miles NE of Seattle.

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Comments

  • Nice canvas

    Title of post should have been "Vitodens Art"

    An artist given a clean canvas will be able to produce his best works.

    Looks like a nice neat start. I don't think the LLH needs to be that high though? But, what's with that whimpy pony tail on the artist;-)

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  • ScottMP
    ScottMP Member Posts: 5,884
    He's an Artist

    Can't wait to see the finished product.

    Scott

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  • Paul Pollets
    Paul Pollets Member Posts: 3,656
    No Wimp!!

    His Ponytail is 2' long. Kelly is a great hydronic mechanic as well as a union SM worker.

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  • Brian (Tankless)
    Brian (Tankless) Member Posts: 340
    Paul, what exactly is

    inside a Low Loss Header. Is it some sort of heat exchanger/buffer tank? Do the boiler/jacket water and system water actually mix?

    Is it just Viessmann's form of "Primary" in P/S piping. If so, then is it just a tank?

    I'm sure there is some kind of temp sensor on it, and I do see a drain.

    Great work, the boiler just looks like a BIG tankless unit when the covers are on.

    Ron Jr would get lost in all those wide-open spaces.

    Must get to work. Swampster.

    IMPORTANT EDIT******

    My name & e-mail have been hijacked. That is not my name or addy in the above boxes.

    Does anyone know how this can happen.

    Brian W. Tankless (not Michael or hvacrmaster@yahoo)
  • Mike T., Swampeast MO
    Mike T., Swampeast MO Member Posts: 6,928
    Low-Loss Header

    Nothing really inside save a sensor well. There's a debris collection area and cleanout at the bottom and air purge at the top.

    No isolation of water--everything mixes.

    Function is to allow the boiler to keep high efficiency in a system that REQUIRES high flow on the system side. With high flow through the Vitodens, delta-t would drop with a resulting drop in heat transfer efficiency.

    It's similar to primary-secondary but not quite the same as it ensures that boiler return temperature is exactly equal to system return temperature. The temperature sensor is located such that it measures the boiler supply temperature as reduced by the portion of the system flow heading back to the system.

    Note that when you use TRVs/FHVs (even on a gravity conversion) the low-loss header is generally not required. But you MUST "go through the numbers" to ensure that the single circulator (built into the smaller models) has sufficient flow ability given your head loss and that such is also sufficient for MAINTENANCE flow at design conditions. (One GREAT thing about gravity conversions is that you really only have the head loss created by the TRVs themselves, and it takes very little for them to work properly.) BUT you must install TRVs on ALL of the radiators--don't do the "control radiator" scheme where you leave one off in the space with a thermostat!
  • Kelly's ponytail is 2 inches long?

    He's certainly no a whimp. You see, I'm growing my hair out as you will soon see and I'm just a bit jealous.

    Love the detail of the attachment of the LLH.

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  • Brian (Tankless)
    Brian (Tankless) Member Posts: 340
    Thanks Mike

    That's a great discription of something very simple doing a complicated job.

    It's giving and taking, sort of keeping things in balance continuously. Really neat. I could make an electrical analogy: a capacitor, a large capacitor.

    I understand it now, the way I understand things of an electrical nature, at a gut level. I Can't explain them, just feel them.

    Btuhrs like Kwhrs, just generating them, moving them and using them. The LLH just sits there balancing things out while the boiler/generator modulates/regulates heat/voltage.

    Thanks again Mike.

    This Swampster is going to bed.

  • Dan Foley
    Dan Foley Member Posts: 1,258
    Vito

    > Two Feet not inches.

    >

    > _A

    > HREF="http://www.heatinghelp.com/getListed.cfm?id=

    > 104&Step=30"_To Learn More About This

    > Professional, Click Here to Visit Their Ad in

    > "Find A Professional"_/A_





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  • Dan Foley
    Dan Foley Member Posts: 1,258
    Vito

    Neat looking job, Paul. Can't wait to see the finished product. -DF

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  • Mike T., Swampeast MO
    Mike T., Swampeast MO Member Posts: 6,928
    A Bit More Complicated

    It's not just heat/voltage/pressure being regulated, it's amperage/volume/size as well.

    The burner AND boiler side circulator both modulate to ensure those conditions through the header. The header doesn't make the conditions, it just gives a simple way for the boiler to understand how to do it. The key is that system return and boiler return temperatures are identical.
  • eleft_4
    eleft_4 Member Posts: 509
    ASK Mike T., Swampeast MO

    Great article, I have a High performance home also ( just 1320 sq feet).
    Can we get a better description and possibly the manufacturer of the "tempering tank". Is it a buffer tank with a different name or is it a different appliance?

    al
  • eleft_4
    eleft_4 Member Posts: 509
    ASK Mike T., Swampeast MO

    Great article, I have a High performance home also ( just 1320 sq feet).
    Can we get a better description and possibly the manufacturer of the "tempering tank". Is it a buffer tank with a different name or is it a different appliance?

    al
  • Mike T., Swampeast MO
    Mike T., Swampeast MO Member Posts: 6,928


    Sure sounds one-and-the-same to me.

    (Before I learned the lingo, I said my system needed "ballast".)

    I have an article coming up in PM Engineer (likely web only). Hate to write about everything inside of it before it's published...

  • Brian (Tankless)
    Brian (Tankless) Member Posts: 340
    Thanks again Mike

    It was getting clear before, now it's even better.

    So, in keeping the boiler and system returns at the same temp, the boiler stays at optimum (efficient) firing temp?

    As precise as this boiler is at maintaining those return temps, I would assume the blower fan motor is frequency, or some form of speed-controlled too. To keep the gas/air mix the same for correct, clean combustion at all levels of output.

    From idle to hwy speed, so to speak.

    Thanks again. The more I know, the gangerouser I get :)

    Brian in 75 F Swampland.

  • eleft_4
    eleft_4 Member Posts: 509
    Vitobare-pgp .....Mike T.

    Thanks Mike,
    I can wait, I'll be looking for your article, you always have interesting thoughts posted.

    al
  • Brian (Tankless)
    Brian (Tankless) Member Posts: 340
    Let us know when

    the article is up there for the reading.

    "Ballast" sounds good to me, words paint pictures. The more similar-meaning words we use, the clearer the picture.

    My 7yr old daughter, Autumn, just lost her last front tooth yesterday and the tooth fairy surprised the heck out of her this morning. I wouldn't miss these early days for anything.

    Thanks for all you all do.

    Hug your kids today, and give them breakfast in bed once in a while, they love it.

    Time for MY breakfast.

    Swampster.





  • Mike T., Swampeast MO
    Mike T., Swampeast MO Member Posts: 6,928


    >>"So, in keeping the boiler and system returns at the same temp, the boiler stays at optimum (efficient) firing temp?"

    Not really. Having the same return temperature from the system and to the boiler allows the burner and circulator modulation logic to work. The burner and circulator work in concert to ensure that boiler supply temperature is higher than system supply temperature and that boiler side flow is less than system side flow.

    When that happens you [should] get the low flow and high delta-t across the boiler HX that the system needs for high efficiency.

    The fuel/air mixture is regulated by a pneumatic, non-mechanical, modulating link.

    From the looks of the one I just brought home, the literature and statements of others regarding doing this, it's a subtle blend of simplicity and precision and as long as gas and combustion air pressures are within the proper range either works perfectly (because it works) or fails completely (because it can't work).
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