solar space heating

Bob Gagnon plumbing and heating

Last monday I installed 120 thermomax tubes at my house. In one week my 1500 gal storage tank went from 60 to 160 degrees. I have been using solar for domestic for about a week , and today I hooked up the storage tank to my radiant heating system and have started heating with solar. Those evacuated tubes really make a lot of heat. Bob

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Joe_51

Bob, very interested in this kind of installations.Can you give us some more install data ? Cost. And above all I'd love to see how this kind of system ties in with your existing radiant system. Job looks REAL good. What do you think payback time is.? Where do you live ??? Joey

Bob Gagnon plumbing and heating

Joey

I live in northern Mass. The collectors alone cost 12 grand. I tied the solar in near my boiler at the supply and return, just like it was a another boiler. My radiant zones and my baseboard zones all work now woth solar. The payback is immediate when you have the comfort of warm solar heated floors, along with the satisfaction of knowing that you are doing something to help the environment and the fuel shortage. Bob

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Joe_51

That's a lot of copper in the second picture ! I'm guessing that is the storage tank and those copper coils are from the collectors from the roof/awning ? I'm glad to hear your from northern Mass, that's tells me it that a system should this is possible in southern Maine. I'm already planning our next home before finishing the first..... I hope you do a follow up on this install after this winter,I'd love to see how it worked out for you.

Dale Pickard

Bob,

That looks pretty neat. I'm certainly jealous.

I'm curious how you did your tank sizing. The rule of thumb calls for about 2 gal/ft2 of collector. Each of your collectors is about 32 ft2 of area or equivalent to 4 - 4x8 flat plates.
What are the other two collectors......they look like a batch domestic water heater?......progressive tubes?

Dale

Bob Gagnon plumbing and heating

tank sizing

I used a corner of my basement 8'x8' and it worked out to 1500 gal. But I think I need a much larger tank. The other collector is a home made box collector that actually works pretty good, at least this time of year. Bob

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Dale Pickard

No

Honest, it really doesn't work that way. You can't store anymore heat than you can use or than you can produce. The storage temperature depends on the balance between the supply and the demand. The volume of the tank affects the temperature at which the heat is stored. Larger tanks will store the heat produced at lower temps.

As the tank becomes super large...the temperatures at which the heat is stored can go low enough as to not be useful for certain loads. e.g. a tank large enough to store the output of your collectors in July at say 100 degs would be very useful still for heating 80 deg swimming pools but not useful at all for storing higher temperatures in Janurary to drive a space heating system, even radiant floors. And such a tank would never be able to completely satisfy domestic water loads at temps above 100.

Remember that we always need 10 - 20 deg approach temperatures to drive whatever load heat exchangers that we may need, e.g. rad floors, dhw coils, pool exchangers etc.

A boiler can produce what ever temps we need without affecting it's capacity. Solar systems are not that way. Solar heat has to be harvested over time. The temperature at which we harvest it will affect how much we harvest. Much of what we harvest will be lost and some of it may not be useful for some applications.

The size of the harvest will depend on everything from air pollution, climate, local weather in the climate, wind speed, tilt, orientation, how well the load coincides with the harvest, how large the load heat exchanger is (no staple up radiant floors) and a host of factors that don't need to be considered with boilers.

Your 1500 gallons will store about 750,000 but if you drop it from 160 to 100. Another way to look at that is a 100,000 btu/hr boiler running for 7.5 hours. Now that's a lot of heat but maybe not if it takes a week to collect. As we move into winter, the solar radiation will wane, the heating load will increase, and the solar fraction of that load will decrease.

It's really quite a dance that a solar mechanical system does with the weather and the load. Ultimately, one calculates an annual solar fraction that such a system might do with the dhw and the space heating. There is software that can provide an annual simulation based on hourly data that can predict what the annual solar fraction might be for a given system in a given location with a given load.

A rule of thumb is 1.5 -0 2 gallons per ft2 of collector for dhw/space heating loads. Beyond that you run into diminishing returns pretty hard. The extra volume doesn't do that much for you. This rule is very well established. If you want higher temps, run smaller volumes.

I've attached a couple of plots that illustrate some of these relationships. This was for a space/dhw system using data for Eagle Colorado.

I could spend a lot of time on this, but I don't want to lecture or bore folks. I really appreciate that folks are into solar again. It's really much different than it may appear.

Dale

Bob Gagnon plumbing and heating

seasonal storage

If my tank heated to almost a maximum temp in one week, this time of year, wouldn't that tell me that I could use a much larger, super insulated tank and store the heat over the course of the summer that would take me further into the winter without turning on my boiler? I already have radiant floors, I just heated my oak stairway and a couple of walls, and I'm going to heat my countertops and ceiling, to get by with the lowest tank temp possible. I appreciate the help and I do not consider it a lecture or boring. I'm going to need all the help I can get to make this thing work. Thanks for your help, Bob Gagnon

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Dale Pickard

Seasonal heat storage

Thanks Bob, after the '70's, I went for a long time realizing that I knew an awful lot about something that few folks were interested in. I enjoy sharing what I know and I want to know that as an industry we don't repeat the same mistakes.

Seasonal heat storage is the holy grail, but really isn't practical or economical, especially high temp storage. Do some back of the envelope calculations on more precisely what is meant by "large" storage tank and "superinsulated". Then compare that to the radiation available, the weather in a given location and the heat load of the house as it varies over time. That is exactly what software like F-chart does. See http://sel.me.wisc.edu/programs.html

For hourly simulation software see http://www.mauisolarsoftware.com/

A "typical" residential annual space heating load in a northern climate may be 50 - 100 million btu/year with most of it occuring at night and on cloudy days. What you just produced in a week is about 1.5% of the 50 m number.

This is why solar domestic water heating, SDHW, is such a better application than solar space heating. It is also why passive solar techniques are so much more effective and efficient than "active" solar techniques. A south facing window doesn't require heat exchange and gets to work at room temp, which minimizes losses from the "collector". Of course there are other limitations to passive solar techniques.

With space heating, the largest load occurs at the worst time when radiation levels and collection efficiency are lowest. Also at that time, our hydronic distribution systems require the highest water temperatures to satisfy the load. This is why low temerature delivery systems are so important. You can't drop your tank below the "minimum useful temperature" for the load. This temp is a moving target, but for space heating it can never be any lower than 70 degrees f.

As we all know, even very efficient radiant floors require much higher water temps than this most of the time, especially under "design conditions", aka worst case conditions. So the practical "size" of your storage tank will vary with the conditions. The basic concept here is known as the "utilizability" of the energy produced.

Contrast this with domestic water heating, where the load is constant on a daily basis throughout the year. Heating 80 gal of dhw over 100 deg each day for 365 days will require about 67,000 btu/day or about 25 million btu/ year. Two of your collectors in your climate will easily produce 100% of this daily load in the summer months. As the seasons change the same two collectors will produce less so that in mid winter, you may get less than half of that. The annual solar fraction may be on the order of 70% of the annual dhw load. The same two collectors would produce only a minor fraction of a space heating load.

The minimum useful temperature for dhw may be as low as 40 deg with a cold tank and as high as 140 with a hot tank. The efficiency of the collectors along with the efficiency of the load heat exchanger will vary as the inlet temp to the collectors changes.

How the load coincides with the supply is important. DHW systems that supply their load completely at night and in the morning get to meet the peak solar production hours in the afternoon with the coldest tank temperatures which maximizes the efficiency of the heat exhangers, both in the collectors and in in the tank, so the higher solar temps are produced under the best conditions.

Seriously, this is a complex subject. The many variables involved affect the results of many other variables. The best way to evaluate all of this is through hourly computer simulations where an exact answer for each variable can be calculated for every one of the 8760 hours in a year.

The information that comes from such simulations is pretty simple. Achieving high annual solar fractions and good economics for active solar space heating is difficult at best . Appllcations like SDHW, residential and commercial can yield high annual solar fractions and good economics with practical systems.

Dale

Kevin_in_Denver

seasonal heat storage

Last weekend I toured the first house I've ever heard of that has hydronic "seasonal" heat storage. A few months of construction are still left.

I'm sure that simulations were run for this house, but I haven't seen them. It is owned by Ron Larson and is in Lookout Mountain CO. There isn't too much on the web about it yet that I've found. Mechanical design was by Ken May of Industrial Solar Technologies, a guy with 20 yrs. hands on experience.

The strategy goes like this... There is a lot of passive solar for the house, and of course it has a very tight envelope. The thermal solar system (Thermomax) is sized for about 120% of the DHW load. So they aren't necessarily storing summer heat for use in the winter, but storing the excess solar heat for use on those cloudy days when the passive isn't keeping up with the load.

The 12,000 gallon storage tank is built right into the entire north basement wall. So the marginal cost of this huge tank is only the cost of one extra 40'concrete wall, insulation, and the EPDM liner. This cost could easily be similar to the cost of a backup boiler, which is eliminated.

Of course, the mountains near Denver are climactically the perfect spot for someone to try to achieve a solar fraction of 100%.

Dale, where are you located? Do you see any achille's heels with this approach?

Dale Pickard

Seasonal heat storage

Hello Kevin,

I'm in Bozeman MT.

The domestic water heating load bears no relation to the space heating load.

There is no such thing as 100% annual solar of ANY load with ANY number of solar collectors. As you throw more and more collectors at the load trying to bring the annual solar fraction to 100% there will always be one month when the weather is poor and the radiation is low.

The absolute minimum useful temperature for any space heating system is ~70 deg f. For hydronic systems that must practice heat exchange the minimum is more like 100 deg f. Minimum useful temp for dhw is more like ~50 deg f for cold well water. For a swimming pool, it's about 80.

I don't know how many ft2 of solar collector constitutes "120%" of the absolute dhw load, there are no common units between the two except for the btu output of the collector array which is a highly variable thing. I would expect that the collector array might consist of say....10 4x8 collectors or 320 ft2.

My guess is that an in depth analysis would show that the system would provide a significant, ie > 30% solar fraction for a swimming pool. A small solar fraction for dhw loads and a very small solar fraction for space heating. The tank is so large that it would seldom reach the minimum useful temp for those two loads. It could do a lot of preheat for dhw but never reach the terminal temp needed. You could collect a lot of heat at a very low temp, but the "utilizability" of that energy for those loads, would be very, very low.

Such a low temp system is a waste of evacuated tubes. MHO

Dale

Kevin_in_Denver

100% solar fraction

> Hello Kevin,

>

> I'm in Bozeman MT.

>

> The

> domestic water heating load bears no relation to

> the space heating load.

>

> There is no such thing

> as 100% annual solar of ANY load with ANY number

> of solar collectors. As you throw more and more

> collectors at the load trying to bring the annual

> solar fraction to 100% there will always be one

> month when the weather is poor and the radiation

> is low.

>

> The absolute minimum useful

> temperature for any space heating system is ~70

> deg f. For hydronic systems that must practice

> heat exchange the minimum is more like 100 deg f.

> Minimum useful temp for dhw is more like ~50 deg

> f for cold well water. For a swimming pool, it's

> about 80.

>

> I don't know how many ft2 of solar

> collector constitutes "120%" of the absolute dhw

> load, there are no common units between the two

> except for the btu output of the collector array

> which is a highly variable thing. I would expect

> that the collector array might consist of

> say....10 4x8 collectors or 320 ft2.

>

> My guess

> is that an in depth analysis would show that the

> system would provide a significant, ie _ 30%

> solar fraction for a swimming pool. A small solar

> fraction for dhw loads and a very small solar

> fraction for space heating. The tank is so large

> that it would seldom reach the minimum useful

> temp for those two loads. It could do a lot of

> preheat for dhw but never reach the terminal temp

> needed. You could collect a lot of heat at a very

> low temp, but the "utilizability" of that energy

> for those loads, would be very, very low.

>

> Such

> a low temp system is a waste of evacuated tubes.

> MHO

>

> Dale



Dale,

Your point is well taken that a usable temperature would be hard to reach if all the heat were always directed to the large tank. However, the DHW load is given priority, so heat isn't directed to the large tank until the DHW tank has reached capacity (roughly 120 gallons at 120 deg.)

Sorry, 120% of DHW load was a very poor choice of words on my part.

A typical solar DHW system in Denver would be 3 4x10's for a family of 4, so I meant that they have, say, 4 collectors. The system is therefore large enough to be storing extra heat in the summer.

A good simulation might or might not prove this out, but the logic is that the extra heat saved from the extra solar capacity is used only for space heat during extended cloudy periods. In 44 years that I'm aware of, we've never had more than 10 totally overcast days in a row.

You are correct that this system would never supply 100% of the DHW also

Kevin_in_Denver

100% solar space heating fraction

Dale,

Your point is well taken that a usable temperature would be hard to reach if all the heat were always directed to the large tank. However, the DHW load is given priority, so heat isn't directed to the large tank until the DHW tank has reached capacity (roughly 120 gallons at 120 deg.)

Sorry, 120% of DHW load was a very poor choice of words on my part.

A typical solar DHW system in Denver would be 3 4x10's for a family of 4, so I meant that they have, say, 4 collectors. The system is therefore large enough to be storing extra heat in the summer.

A good simulation might or might not prove this out, but the logic is that the extra heat saved from the extra solar capacity is used only for space heat during extended cloudy periods. In 44 years that I'm aware of, we've never had more than 10 totally overcast days in a row.

You are correct that this system would never supply 100% of the DHW, but it could come close for space heat.

Dale Pickard

OK,

If the system is on priority as you say, than 3 4x10's in Denver for a family of 4 will do a great job of dhw but likely have very little heat left over for space heating.

The big tank will make a nice buffer to keep the collectors from over heating in the summer and swing months.

I attached two quick f-chart runs in pdf format using Denver data. 3, 4 x 10's of a decent flat plate with performance equivalent to a SunEarth or Heliodyne black chome, single glass collector. You can see all the input data for the thermal output.

The column F and the purple line on the graph show the solar fraction of the dhw load satisfied. The number Solar and the blue line on the graph is the amount of energy available to the surface of the solar collector, at that location, at that tilt and orientation and at that time.

The first run is 3 collectors against 120 gallons of storage. The second is against 240 gallons of storage. You can see the amount of energy left over for space heating...however it happened.

Dale

Kevin_in_Denver

summer heat saved for cloudy winter day

The extra heat is at least 6 - 8 million btus, which would be enough to get thru 18 cold, cloudy days. That may not be enough to say goodbye to backup heat. It also means a maximum large tank temp of 160, which is reasonable.

Thanks for reminding me about f-chart. I haven't used it for 20 years.

Dale Pickard

Huh?

Well,

There will be some extra capacity that might be directed elsewhere, like the enormous buffer tank. Maybe 6-8 million btu, as you suggest but...
most of that excess occurs in the spring summer and fall. You have to store and hold on to it, without temperature degradation for some time before it can be "delivered". In reality, especially economic reality, the "superinsulated" tank is a myth.

in a 12,000 gal tank you can store 100,000 btu over a 1 deg swing, and 8 million over a 80 deg swing. But the storage, exchange, delivery system is far from 100% efficient. In a pressurized radiant floor heating system, you have to exchange at least twice to get from the open storage tank into the space. You need at least 20 deg for each exchange. Also, more heat is lost to untoward places, like crawlspaces, ie "not delivered".

The required delivery temp for the radiant floor and the building has nothing to do with the temperature that may be sitting in the storage tank and the ability of the distribution and delivery system to move it into the space. They are not related.

So, just because 8 million btu were captured doesn't mean it is available, of sufficient quality, (temperature) for delivery. It will just be a large pool of slightly tepid water. You could use it to feed a heat pump to raise it's temperature to something useful for spaceheating but even they max out at 120 and a poor COP. And there is still only 8 million btu available. A bunch of mechanical hu rah rah for nothing.
To be truthful, Ithis is the kind of compulsive engineering that plagues solar energy development. We need reliable and effective devices that offset real conventional energy and prove themselves economically and can be widely applied.

One of those proven devices is the solar water heater. They are nice and simple and straightforward and if they were in widespread use, we as a society would save and obviate the production a "lot" of conventional energy.

I note Mr. Olsztynski's recent misguided diatribe in Supply House times in which he presses his uninformed opinons regarding the future and promise of nuclear power in the US. This industry is plagued with clueless people like this.

No nukes have been ordered in ages by utilities simply because the are not cost effective. They behemoth technology that cost a fortune, require huge subsidies, take forever to build, have limited lifetimes and uncertain futures and for all of that they only piddle out a little bit of electricity.
If they are so safe, why was it necessary for an act of congress to limity their the liabilities of insurance companies in the case of an "event". (Price-Anderson Act, 1953....renewed last year)

Here's a calculation for you. How many solar water heaters does it take to obviate a 500 megawattt nuke. (don't forget to lose 30% in transmission)
Here's a related question, how many jobs would either project create.
The answers may surprise you.
Small is beautiful.

Dale

Sorry for the diatribe.....Dan thinks I'm just ego tripping. Maybe so.

Brad_9

Thanks

> Well,

>

> There will be some extra capacity that

> might be directed elsewhere, like the enormous

> buffer tank. Maybe 6-8 million btu, as you

> suggest but... most of that excess occurs in the

> spring summer and fall. You have to store and

> hold on to it, without temperature degradation

> for some time before it can be "delivered". In

> reality, especially economic reality, the

> "superinsulated" tank is a myth.

>

> in a 12,000

> gal tank you can store 100,000 btu over a 1 deg

> swing, and 8 million over a 80 deg swing. But the

> storage, exchange, delivery system is far from

> 100% efficient. In a pressurized radiant floor

> heating system, you have to exchange at least

> twice to get from the open storage tank into the

> space. You need at least 20 deg for each

> exchange. Also, more heat is lost to untoward

> places, like crawlspaces, ie "not

> delivered".

>

> The required delivery temp for the

> radiant floor and the building has nothing to do

> with the temperature that may be sitting in the

> storage tank and the ability of the distribution

> and delivery system to move it into the space.

> They are not related.

>

> So, just because 8

> million btu were captured doesn't mean it is

> available, of sufficient quality, (temperature)

> for delivery. It will just be a large pool of

> slightly tepid water. You could use it to feed a

> heat pump to raise it's temperature to something

> useful for spaceheating but even they max out at

> 120 and a poor COP. And there is still only 8

> million btu available. A bunch of mechanical hu

> rah rah for nothing. To be truthful, Ithis is

> the kind of compulsive engineering that plagues

> solar energy development. We need reliable and

> effective devices that offset real conventional

> energy and prove themselves economically and can

> be widely applied.

>

> One of those proven devices

> is the solar water heater. They are nice and

> simple and straightforward and if they were in

> widespread use, we as a society would save and

> obviate the production a "lot" of conventional

> energy.

>

> I note Mr. Olsztynski's recent

> misguided diatribe in Supply House times in which

> he presses his uninformed opinons regarding the

> future and promise of nuclear power in the US.

> This industry is plagued with clueless people

> like this.

>

> No nukes have been ordered in ages

> by utilities simply because the are not cost

> effective. They behemoth technology that cost a

> fortune, require huge subsidies, take forever to

> build, have limited lifetimes and uncertain

> futures and for all of that they only piddle out

> a little bit of electricity. If they are so

> safe, why was it necessary for an act of congress

> to limity their the liabilities of insurance

> companies in the case of an "event".

> (Price-Anderson Act, 1953....renewed last

> year)

>

> Here's a calculation for you. How many

> solar water heaters does it take to obviate a 500

> megawattt nuke. (don't forget to lose 30% in

> transmission) Here's a related question, how

> many jobs would either project create. The

> answers may surprise you. Small is

> beautiful.

>

> Dale

>

> Sorry for the

> diatribe.....Dan thinks I'm just ego tripping.

> Maybe so.

Brad_9

Thanks

Dale,

Thanks for the breath of fresh insight. Those of us doing solar for many years hope that the whole industry doesn't have to re-invent itself all over again. Let's hear it for proven, reliable, long life, flat plate solar domestic hot water systems (and pool heating)!

If people want to experiment I'm all for that, but please install proven reliable systems for your customers. I can't imagine that this industry isn't going to grow by leaps and bounds. I certainly hope for all our sakes that it does, and continues to, it's a win-win for everyone.

Bob Gagnon plumbing and heating

100 % Solar

is possible. If 120 tubes heated 1500 gal to 160 degrees in sept. why couldn't it heat a 15,000 gal tank in June, July, and Aug.? It's a simple matter of enough collectors and enough storage. I disagree with you when you say Mr. Olsztynski and many people in the industry are clueless. He has taught me many things over the years and he is anything but clueless. We don't have all the answers, but we are trying to find them, this site is a good example. Just because your books and charts and graphs tell you this can't be done, that dosen't make it so. It is possible and we are going to do it! Bob Gagnon

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enough to be dangerous

tank

how did you build your 1500 gallon tank?

pasquale

enough to be dangerous

tank

how did you build your 1500 gallon tank?

pasquale

enough to be dangerous

tank details

can you give some details of how this 12,000 gallon
tank was built?

What is this liner material?
is the weight of the water acting on the outside of the basement wall? Is this safe?
If a normal basement wall leaks you get a trickle
of cold water from the outside dirt. If this leaks won't
you get a flood of HOT water?

pasquale

Dale Pickard

Well,

You're certainly free to disagree with me about Olsztynski. All I know about him is the stuff he writes. He's got the same attitude whether he is writing about low water use toilets, to lead free solder, to solar or nuclear energy. He's clearly got a political agenda and looks for opportunities to express it....however inappropriate.

I was inappropriate of me to bring it up. The article was sitting in front of me and I was trying to explain why solar water heaters are so nice and simple and effective......and I got carried away. I have received emails from people who like what I wrote.

However, neither you or I are free to disagree with engineering or the physics that it's based on. I'm sorry that you're not into books, I have a few solar engineering texts I could recommend to you to learn things you don't know. I should add that I have designed and installed mechanical solar systems for over 20 years and I have also monitored their performance in place. I have experience backs up my "book learning".

A LOT of people have walked the path you are on and a LOT of experience has been gathered on these topics. You can be as stubborn as you want to be but that definitely doesn't make it so.

I'll end this here. Good luck to you.

Dale

hr

heated up over solar info

Bob, Dale does have some good info and lessons to share. He is a pussycat in person Swing by the Radiant Engineering booth at ISH and meet face to face.

As you can tell by Dale's company name he needs to make us aware of the "numbers" behind the solar.

I, like you, also try the trial and error method at times with my spare parts and time. Nothing wrong with that IMO. I'll continue with some neanderthal engineering from time to time.

Nice that Dale, Siggy, ME, and other solar grand daddys stop by to share solar from the old days

Here is a cousin to your tank after almost 20 years in service. Pin holes took the beast out of service. Be sure to monitor water quality in the tank as well as in the pipe. This is an early Chiles Power System (pre Heatway days) tied to a solar roll panel on the roof. Provided tens of millions of BTUs over it's life span, perhaps

hot rod

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Bob Gagnon plumbing and heating

1500 gal tank

I framed it, then insulated with 2 layers of 1 1/2" foam insulation, then I lined it with rubber. The outside of the frame also has 2" of foam. The top has 3" of foam and 11 1/2" of fiberglass on top of that. Hot Rod was nice enough to explain how, 3 years ago when I built the tank. I left enough room inside so I could reline it if I had to. I just read in the newspaper that nat gas was going up 15% and oil 28%. The payback period just got about 20% shorter for solar systems.

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Kevin_in_Denver

12,000 gal tank

It's built with 8" reinforced concrete walls. EPDM rubber sheet liner. Structural Engineering PE is required for this type of design. Catastrophic leakage just not possible, but it sound like the liner is good for 20 yrs.

GaryDidier

Solar

Bob. When can we have a tour to check it out? As fuel prices continue to rise solar is looking better all the time. What do you think is the expected life span on this system? Thanx for posting this info and pictures. I would like to get into this part of our industry. What is a good source of info for solar?

Gary from Granville

Ron Huber

Dale

Is right. I have been doing solar since 1977, have done flat plates and Thermomax and Viessmann/Thermomax Tubes. Here in N.central NH our % of sunny days over the course of the year is 56%, I'm sure it is close to the same in Lowell Ma. . Denver is in the 80% range, as a comparison. I sold a 120 tube Thermomax system in South Hampton NH(not too far from Lowell) installed in 95 heating a 120 gallon Vitocell and a 16x30 indoor pool. Pool water at 82 degrees, worked pretty good until the tubes went bad. From November until late January, you may be a little disapointed.

Kevin_in_Denver

Thermomax

How long did the tubes last and what went wrong with them? Were they under warranty?

Bob Gagnon plumbing and heating

tube questions

was the water circulating in the summer, did you have a dump zone to get rid of excess heat. You said I would be disapointed in the winter, do they produce little heat in the winter? You said your job worked pretty good, if the tubes lasted longer would the job be considered a success? Thanks for your help, Bob Gagnon

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Bob Gagnon plumbing and heating

solar tour

anytime you want. I'm 40 miles north of boston. Call 978-453-2211

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