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munchkin VS vitodens?

unsure homeowner
unsure homeowner Member Posts: 4
in THE MAIN WALL
my plumber has shown me 2 high eff. boilers for my new home the munchkin and the viessmann vitodens?

which boiler is the better choice?

and what are the biggest reasons? the efficiencies look about the same?

i am going all radiant floor heating and dhw and a small snow melt so you have an idea of my system.

thanks in advance!

the unsure homeowner

Comments

  • Steve Eayrs
    Steve Eayrs Member Posts: 424
    Ask your plumber.

    What does he say. He may have a preference. We all do, and mines Vitodens. The only reason some may opt for the Munchkin, is lower initial price. IMHO.....thats the only possible reason.

    Don't have time for all the details, but you could also look up in previous, (archives on this site), and see lots of talk about these two boilers.


    Bottom line.....I would go with what your plumber/hydronic heat expert will stand behind and warranty.


    I know I possibly got someones blood pressure to raise a little, by giving my opinion, so you can now count on a counter from a Munchkin man. As said before, look up previous threads on Munchkin and Vitodens.


    Steve
  • marc
    marc Member Posts: 203
    vitodens

    is by far the superior boiler, the vitodens comes with all of the bells and whistles as standard equipment, on the control there are consumer accessible adjustments that are easy to fine tune the boiler / heating system once istalled
    the munchkin comes standard as a set point boiler with the upgrade to the vision control. the enclosure of the vitodens is completely sealed with a gasketed cover. so there is no air from inside. on the other hand the munchkin is not a true sealed boiler, no gaskets ect. we have installed over 20 of the vitodens in the last year. they are leaps and bounds above the munchkin, but they are selling the munchkin like crazy, so they must be doing something right there. viessmann has a great tech. service group, htp appears to have a good one to, they are here alot answering questions. marc.
  • Dale Pickard
    Dale Pickard Member Posts: 231
    Vitodens

    Buy the Vitodens. There really is no comparison betweent the two. The munchkin is just a wantabe vitodens. If you cant' afford the vitodens, buy a nice simple iron boiler with the appropriate controls to protect it and provide the functions that you want. Theoretical efficiency aside, there is a lot to be said for raw reliability. The Vitodens has that.

    Dale
  • R. Kalia_5
    R. Kalia_5 Member Posts: 12
    value?

    I agree with what has been said above, but the Vitodens is very expensive; will you ever get your money's worth? Not in energy savings, that's for sure; as you said, the efficiencies are comparable. You may value reliability and solid construction (no plastic, no velcro), or you may want a boiler you can brag about, in which case the Vitodens becomes a better buy. The Munchkin is a bit of a kludge job, with wires festooned all over (at least on my small T80M wall-mount). But it's available at a good price and it works. Just make sure your installer has been to a Munchkin class and that he/she does everything by the book; these boilers are not forgiving of installation errors.
  • Nron_9
    Nron_9 Member Posts: 237
    vito wins

    Too bad a home owner cant do a live comparison on the heat exchangers and burners , then the vitdens would win hands down , when looking at energy eff. you must look at power consumption as well as gas ,a friend sent me a study done on power consumption of all the latest condensing boilers an they all range from 300-500 KW per year in use EXCEPT vitodens which came in at 80 KW , per year in power consuption , I guess it is now easier to see which is more efficent
  • R. Kalia_5
    R. Kalia_5 Member Posts: 12
    don't know that number, but...

    I don't know the source of that KW number, but 500KW would cost me $50/year, which is hardly the biggest expense when heating a house. A saving of $40/year is 2% of my heating bill, which is in the noise. Alternatively, at $40/year it will take me about a hundred years to pay the difference in cost between a Munchkin and a Vitodens, and that's if I ignore the time value of money.
  • ALH_2
    ALH_2 Member Posts: 1
    Priorities

    The focus of the manufacturers of those two boilers is very different. HTP (Munchkin) has their focus on making an inexpensive condensing boiler. Viessmann has a different marketing focus. Like most european manufacturers they focus on adding value to the product rather than on beating their competitors on price. Viessmann designs and builds their boilers. HTP does not manufacture the heat exchanger in the Munchkin.

    In reality your fuel consumption will probably be similar. The Viessmann is a nice self contained package unlike the Munchkin which requires add-ons to attain somewhat similar operation.

    Like others have said the Vitodens is far and away the better boiler, but the Munckin works also. In your position I would make the higher initial investment and buy the Vitodens.

    -Andrew
  • S Ebels
    S Ebels Member Posts: 2,322
    I'll go out on thin ice here.....

    You also have to bear in mind the operating life and money spent on repair and maintenance over the life of the product. This is a little harder to quantify in hard $$$.$$.

    Let me just say that the burner on the Vito is like nothing else I've ever seen on a piece of residential equipment. The combustion process is complete and nearly totaly contained in/on the burner itself. There is no "flame" per se'. The burner is a radiant ball. What this does is enhance complete combustion without the fear of excessive CO production. There is no flame to impinge on the HX. There is little worry about soot production and combustion by-products eventually clogging the HX either. Hard to underestimate that positive.

    And while we're on the topic of the heat exchanger.......I had the opportunity to view and handle a cross-sectioned piece of the HX in both boilers a while back. The Vito has, I'm estimating..... 4 times the weight and thickness of material as the Munchkin. Can't say it any more plainly than that. You can actually see and feel the difference in the metal when you see them side by side.

    My gut, my head, my eyes, my experience are all telling me that you will go through 2-3 Munchkins to 1 Vito. Does that make the Munchkin a bad product? Not in the least. It does what it is designed to do and that is provide great efficiency for a halfway affordable price. I install them and have had decent luck so far. The Vito does what it does as well. It was designed to be the most efficient, clean burning, reliable, long-lived piece of condensing equipment on the market. Bar none. Nothing was witheld, no expense was spared,(obviously) in its materials, design and construction. I don't have even a glimmer of a doubt that the Vito will prove to be the cheapest over its life cycle. It's getting past that initial pop that hurts and goes somewhat against the American way.

  • Mike T., Swampeast MO
    Mike T., Swampeast MO Member Posts: 6,928
    If you want to go for

    1) maximum fuel savings

    2) best potential for long life with little service

    3) fewest components to go wrong

    Use a Vitodens, a single-temperature system design and FHV proportional thermostatic flow control valves for the radiant floors. (While not particuarly difficult the use the FHVs are extremely uncommon in the US--too bad.)

    Be aware that even a "small" snow melting system can take LOTS of heat. Probably not a problem for a few steps and a short sidewalk, but if you're talking driveway...
  • unsure homeowner
    unsure homeowner Member Posts: 4
    A CLEAR WINNER!

    from all the comments and messages it sounds like a clear winner in my book - the vitodens sounds like an amazing unit. price is not the way i want to pick my equipment.

    thanks for everyones advice - i will be purchasing a vitodens for my new system.

    the homeowner who knows what he wants!
  • Constantin
    Constantin Member Posts: 3,796
    Now while you are still feeling spendy...

    ... don't forget to put a brick in Dan's Wall. Better yet, why not also buy his Radiant Heating Book? Cheers!
  • Ted_9
    Ted_9 Member Posts: 1,718


    The Munchkin has a nice up front price and they are putting some great features with them.. I'm quite excited about the Vision 2. You can mix up to 4 temps and each with their own outdoor reset. Plus many other things.

    I also install Buderus. These 2 boilers are predominate in my line up. Love Viessmann too
    Patriot Heating & Cooling, Inc.
  • unsure homeowner
    unsure homeowner Member Posts: 4
    buderus?

    > The Munchkin has a nice up front price and they

    > are putting some great features with them.. I'm

    > quite excited about the Vision 2. You can mix up

    > to 4 temps and each with their own outdoor reset.

    > Plus many other things.

    >

    > I also install

    > Buderus. These 2 boilers are predominate in my

    > line up. Love Viessmann too _A

    > HREF="http://www.patriot-hvac.com/"_Patriot

    > Heating & Cooling, Inc._/A_



  • unsure homeowner
    unsure homeowner Member Posts: 4
    buderus?

    never heard of it? do they make a wall hung condensing boiler?

    what is the biggest differences or benifits to it over the vitodens - if any?

    thanks for any additional in put!

    the curious homeowner!

    p.s. - i may just buy a brick!
  • Brian
    Brian Member Posts: 285
    Vito

    I have yet to hear why the wonderful heat exchanger of the vitodens only has an eight year warranty.It's hard to sell a product that costs twice as much but has half the warranty.

    Good Luck
    Brian
  • S Ebels
    S Ebels Member Posts: 2,322
    As far as I know

    The Buderus wall hung is not available yet, though they are saying any time now. It is an aluminum block design. Control setup is very similar to their 2107 outdoor reset control for their standard boiler (if any boiler from Germany is standard). I haven't seen one other than in pictures so I can't make any valid comments. Buderus is top drawer stuff. We install it regularly.
  • marc
    marc Member Posts: 203
    warranty

    on the munchkin is ??? i wonder how long those orings and high temp. silicone on the exchanger will last, i would be willing to bet the vitodens will be chugging along making you warm and happy long after the munchkin has been replaced with another, just give it some time. the exchanger on the vitodens would be the last thing i think would fail. probably something mech. will go first. how many car manufacturers give you a 8 year warranty ?? marc
  • Mark Hunt
    Mark Hunt Member Posts: 4,908
    12 years


    Anymore questions?

    Mark H

    To Learn More About This Professional, Click Here to Visit Their Ad in "Find A Professional"
  • marc
    marc Member Posts: 203
    replacement

    so what do they do when it leaks, send you a new boiler??? or new exchanger. probably a new boiler because you would be hard pressed to replace the exchanger.
  • Mark Hunt
    Mark Hunt Member Posts: 4,908
    Quite honestly


    I can't answer your question since I have never had one fail.

    So what did Viessmann do for you on the HX that failed for you?


    Mark H

    To Learn More About This Professional, Click Here to Visit Their Ad in "Find A Professional"
  • Dale Pickard
    Dale Pickard Member Posts: 231
    No problem

    We have no problem selling the Vitodens, it's obviously a superior product.
    If the HX needed replacement, you would replace the entire HX, but not the entire boiler.

    The HX is a single piece laser welded assembly, no o rings, no silicone, no multiple parts, no squashed tubes. The stainless in it is better than twice as thick.
    It looks like this.
  • Dale Pickard
    Dale Pickard Member Posts: 231
    The burner

    in operation, looks like this. The other photo is of the complete burner assembly.

    Dale
  • kf_2
    kf_2 Member Posts: 118
    Brian

    Brian,

    Interesting thing about that Munchkin Warranty. If the H/X fails at 12 years the purchaser is responsible for 75% of the cost to replace. The cost to the homeowner through the 12 years as follows;

    2-7 Years = 0% / 8&9 Years = 25% / 10&11 Years = 50%
    12 Years = 75%

    Now, if you take into consideration a typicl 3% price increase per year on most boilers and products in general. After 12 years that would be about a 43% more expensive product to buy. After 7 years it's about a 26% more expensive product.

    So, now lets figure that when the Munchkin was purchased, the cost of the Munchkin was $1000.00 (nice easy round number). At the end of 12 years that boiler will cost about $1425.00. The purchaser is responsible for 75% of that cost which is $1068.75. More than the original boiler. Not much of a warranty is it?

    The Vitodens, by the way, has an eight year non-prorated warranty on the H/X. Viessmann also doesn't require records of the H/X having been cleaned every 2-years.

    In either case, if a manufacturers defect doesn't show up within 8 or even 12 years chances are it ain't a manufacturers defect.


    kf
  • Steve Eayrs
    Steve Eayrs Member Posts: 424
    my track record on both............

    Have installed (3) Munchkin, (I did not supply or sell any of the Munchkins) and had to replaced the blower motors and gaskets on two of them, within only a few days of the install. Also replaced the blower on one that we did not install, but were called for emergency service. After the local supply house ran out of replacement parts, it took them over 2 weeks to get the parts up here for one of them! To be fair I believe the slow arriving parts were due to a poor rep. up here and not Munchkins fault. BUT still a very poor record for replacement of parts. YES they did not charge me for the parts, (after complaining a lot about $400+ blower motors) but NO they did not pay for the labor to replace the parts.


    Now the Vitodens........ Believe I have installed, and supplied (8) of them. Only had one problem one, which was found to be a faulty board on startup. The codes on the machine pip-pointed the problem right away, in the troubleshooting guide, and once we convinced the local rep. we needed a new board right away, (took a few phone calls) Veissman had one sent to me right away, UPS red. Again the only hold-up was the rep. not the boiler company.


    So my conclusion has been the cheaper boiler (munchkin) cost me more than the profit margin to get repaired, (in payroll and un-productive work, for my guys).

    ON the Munchkin we did not install but repaired, (it was about 2 years old), we charged for the material and labor, (Munchkin would not warranty it, and I don't blame them since it was a joe-blow who installed it), and between the blower motor, venturi problems, gasket problems, etc. we made three different trips. I believe that if you added the cost of all the repairs up, and the cost of the original Munchkin, the boiler now cost more than a Vitodens would have.


    My experience tells me you will pay on one end or the other, but you can only plan one end. The other end always seems to happen at the most inconvenient time.


    A personal overview....

    - Munchkins have had repairs 75% of the time.
    - Vitodens have had repairs aprox. 12.5% of the time.


    Steve

  • Steve Eayrs
    Steve Eayrs Member Posts: 424
    my track record on both over the last couple years.



    Have installed (3) Munchkin, (I did not supply or sell any of the Munchkins) and had to replaced the blower motors and gaskets on two of them, within only a few days of the install. Also replaced the blower on one that we did not install, but were called for emergency service. After the local supply house ran out of replacement parts, it took them over 2 weeks to get the parts up here for one of them! To be fair I believe the slow arriving parts were due to a poor rep. up here and not Munchkins fault. BUT still a very poor record for replacement of parts. YES they did not charge me for the parts, (after complaining a lot about $400+ blower motors) but NO they did not pay for the labor to replace the parts.


    Now the Vitodens........ Believe I have installed, and sold (8) of them. Only had one problem one, which was found to be a faulty board on startup. The codes pip-pointed the problem right away, in the troubleshooting guide, and once we convinced the local rep. we needed a new board right away, (took a few mad phone calls) Veissman had one sent to me right away, UPS red. Again the only hold-up was the rep. not the boiler company.


    So my conclusion has been the cheaper boiler (munchkin) cost me more than the profit margin to get repaired, (in payroll and un-productive work, for my guys). Wait....I just told you that I did not sell any of the Munchkins, so I had no profit margin at all. Guess is was just a loss.


    A side note.... the Munchkins were either bought directly by the home owners or others who thought they were going to install them themselves, but decided they better hire someone who knew what they were doing. This may not a problem in your areas but is up here with some things. All you need is a buddy up the road somewhere, who is a contractor, and then buy your boiler through his account. Happens way too much around here.
    Have not had the same problem with any Veissman boilers.


    ON the Munchkin that we did not install, but were called to repairs, (it was about 2 years old), we charged for the material and labor, (Munchkin would not warranty it, and I don't blame them since it was a joe-blow who installed it), and between the blower motor, venturi problems, gasket problems, etc. we made three different trips. I believe that if you added the cost of all the repairs up, and the cost of the original Munchkin, the boiler now cost more than a Vitodens would have.


    My experience tells me you will pay on one end or the other, but you can only plan the begining. The other end always seems to happen at the most inconvenient time.


    A personal overview....
    - Munchkins have had major problems 75% of the time.
    - Vitodens have had major problems 12.5% of the time.


    Have found the manufactures of both to be very helpful, but only after I got wise enought to by-pass the local reps.


    Which of the boilers would you want? Which one actually costs you more after a couple years service?
    I know this is not the experience of some of you, but it has been mine.



    Steve

  • Unknown
    Unknown
    Dear unsure,

    The Vitodens IS ,,, what ALL the others strive to become. JMHO

    Still can't figure out why a guy like ME would switch from the Big (German) Blue to a HTP condencer. Must be something good about the Munchkin or something having to do with his supply chain.

    I'm signed up to take the HTP tour at the next Gathering of the WetHeads in RI. Can't wait:-)


    Gary Wallace

    To Learn More About This Professional, Click Here to Visit Their Ad in "Find A Professional"
  • marc
    marc Member Posts: 203
    i already said

    that the vitodens would be working long after the munckin, no i have not had to replace the exchanger on the vito. marc.
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