genral suggestions on conversion

Steve Rose

I purchased on old home (built in the 20's):

- 3400 sq ft
- minimal insulation on main and upper levels
- basement is below grade 50% and will be well insulated as it is presently unfinished.

The house has an existing ancient boiler that supplied heat for 3 zones of baseboard driven by 3 circulators.

Presently 320 LF of baseboard - more then typically required it seems - likely to deal with the minimal insulation.

The boiler appears to me (a lay person) as to have been originally designed for coal (it has 2 hatches in the front which are now sealed with some material)and is retrofitted (my guess again) with an oil burning device.

We are liekly to replace this monster and will want to go gas at the same time - we have gas service now and Keyspan (long island NY) will give us some incentives to do so (not that this is the sole decision for converting).

The house has a single fireplace. The chimney has 2 chambers side by side, one for the fireplace and one for the Boiler and HW Heater.

I am wondering:

With a newer - more efficient boiler - will we be able to use the chimney as is or will we need to have it lined?

Would one suggest passing on lining in favor of a direct vented unit (logistically this is quite doable)

In general - suggestions on a brand of boiler for this type of situation (I will need anywhere for 250 - 325 btu of input - this is a gross estimate as I await arrival of my slant fin s/w for heat loss calc.

In general, with multi-zone of this type - is it preferable to do one circulator with 3 zone valves or 3 separate circulators.

Comments suggestions etc welcome

E-mail contact welcome

lchmb

alot of personal choices

I would say alot of what you are asking would be personal. For one I personally would be leary of Keyspan. Having dealt with them in NH and the deal's they make with customer's generally does not work well. As to the issue with the chimney, if it is not lined I personally would prefer to have it lined than go to direct vent. The reason for this would be the noise of the power venter. I also prefer oil over gas even though I am a gas tech. go figure, more BTU's and not owned by one company. I would have a reputable company come in, do a complete heat loss to the building and look at all the option's available. As to circulator's or zone valves, I prefer circulator's personally but either will work as long as the header's are sized properly. Good luck...:)

Ken_8

Be very careful...

Like all monster size companies, K-S has extremely competent installers - as well as some of the most inept on planet earth. This is the "bane" of all monster-sized companies. The ratio of high quality techs, to inept (I'm being as "kind" as I can be with regard to adjectives here), is a reflection of the management's abilities to run the boiler installation division - and who they employ.

The history of K-S is saddled with a horrific history, going back to Brooklyn Union & Con-Ed days of legendary customer abuse, price fixing, regulatory litigation, class action law-suits and never ending battles with NY State regulatory affairs.

Has their "morph" into a new-company cured all the old ills and baggage? Apparently not. Many, if not most of the old utility company middle managers remain - and so do the problems that were the original demise before re-organization. K-S has a small presence in my area of northern NJ. Their incompetence is the stuff legends and lawsuits are made of! Being kind, their track record of code violatiopns and inept workmanship is page-two news to the point of complete corporate embarresment. They appear to be thinking of leaving NJ completely.

I would suggest you consider a small contractor who specializes in oil to gas conversions; one without a "suit" doing sales presentations - who's most intimate contact with a boiler, is a commission check; rather than (what amounts to) an unregulated utility, who desperately wants to be all things to all people.

I would suggest getting three or four estimates/proposals from boiler installers your neighbors, friends and nearby relative's might suggest - rather than deal with a "suit."

Nothing beats a word of mouth referal. And nothing beats dealing directly with the man who will return to actually do the job of installing the new boiler - or his immediate supervisor/boss (a/k/a "responsible party")

Nothing.

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ernie_3

OUCH

I just accepted the position of Installation Mngr w' Keyspan
I'm not liking what I'm hearing. I strive to do my best for the customer. I continually study my trade and "yearn to learn". They put me through the ringer for the hiring process. I liked the 'gauntlet' and am hoping this weeds out a lot of the "inept" installers. Could someone say something positive please?

Steamhead

I'd say you're on the right track

You are correct that you have an old coal boiler converted to oil. Some of these were quite efficient, others quite inefficient. It all depends on the original boiler design and who did the conversion.

Many of these old coal units were oversized so the owner wouldn't have to shovel coal so often. Don't be surprised if the heat-loss is much smaller than the boiler capacity. Go with the heat-loss values- smaller boilers are less expensive and won't waste fuel by short-cycling.

As far as zoning, I prefer circulators to zone valves. This insures that each zone always gets the proper flow, which is especiially important with baseboard.

Ken has said exactly what I would say about buying from the gas utility. You want a smaller, dedicated heating contractor who knows your system. Try the Find a Professional page of this site to locate one near you.

And don't forget that oil costs less per BTU right now. Oil-fired equipment has come a long way since the coal-conversion days, and today is just as efficient as gas-fired equipment. And most oil-fired boilers can be changed to gas by replacing the burner, but you can't change a gas-fired boiler to oil.

Steamhead

Ernie

I hope that your working for Keyspan will change things for the better. Keep us posted.

Ken_8

I'll say somtheing nice!

You and all the decent folks like you - CAN make a difference!

Undoubtedly, you will. Start by recalling that old adage, "The chain is only as strong as the weakest link."

After you get the lay of the land, implement the "fix" by rewarding excellence - and reducing inept-ness.

Your first allegance is to your employer. The manner with which you deal with employees in your charge and the customer's they serve, is where the rubber meets the road.

I have a feeling they hired you for all the right reasons.

Enjoy the opportunity to make things better. Good luck in this endeavor!



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ed wallace

keyspan

Hi Ernie try this women calls Keyspan about co detector going off the tech red tags it for troducing 10-20 ppm of co i saw the tag

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DaveGateway

Keyspan deals

I thought Keyspan will just do the free boiler if you convert(probably just an 80% AFUE CI model) and call in an outside plumber/contractor or you pick one on their list.
I didn't think they do their own installs or were alowed to anymore just like offering service contracts.

lchmb

I'll try!

Ernie I wish you the best in your new position. I have done a number of install's for your company in New Hampshire. I will credit your company with doing a lot for people in the way of new boiler conversion's for folk's who could not purchase one on their own.. As to my earlier post, if you would like to chat more about it email me. More than happy to give my point of view..:)

ernie_3

thank you

For some decent responses. Didn't intend to hijack the H/O
thread. I hope to make a difference. I'm comfortable bringing my personality and experience to this co. I'm also not afraid of risk, as evidenced by this career tack @ 43. I actually hope some upper mngmt are tuned to the Wall
and caught some of this thread. I feel a company can only make a difference one customer at a time. Attitude comes from the top down, (Clinton didn't help this adage!).
Thanks again. Am giving up my mechanical business for this oppurtunity..........I'll keep you posted.

Constantin

I'm just a fellow homeowner but...

... I'll try to give some intelligent advice anyway.

• I would start off by finding a great contractor on LI. Someone who can do gas or oil. They can lay out the costs of either fuel on LI. Gas or Oil may be more cost efficient, it really depends on the part of the country. In Boston, the difference was 40% last winter (in favor of oil).
• Then, I would ask them to do a heat-loss calc on the house given its present condition (all great contractors do this as a matter of course).
• Also consider a blower-door test to see how good the house is insulated against infiltration. Better insulation/weatherstripping does not have to be expensive and it's something that saves you money year after year.
• When it comes to installing a new heating system, your chimney might be good enough to stand up to a conventional (i.e. non-condensing) oil burner. However, more likely than not, it will be completely oversized. Therefore, I imagine it's almost certain that you'll have to line the thing (to make it draft well). It's almost certainly not suitable for a modern, condensing gas appliance.
• In fact, if you go gas, DV on a condensing unit is the way to go. Gas units don't smell unless they're not burning right. However, siting a DV vent/intake can be tricky, you need a suitable distance from all windows, doors, etc. where they won't interfere (at least in MA, 8' is the minimum distance from the outlet to any door or window).
• Whether you go with multiple circulators or zone valves is a personal choice. Many folks here seem to prefer multiple circulators over multiple valves. To a certain extent, with the advent of variable-speed circulators that can run on a pressure sensor, the whole thing becomes abitrary as long as all the zones have the same pressure-loss or have been artifically balanced to all exhibit the same flow resistance. With multiple zones of differing sizes and whatnot, it may be easier to go with multiple circulators and know that the zone will get it's water when it's calling for it.
• Lastly, if you're looking at a multiple-100k burner, do consider upgrading the insulation in your homes. Harvey Tru-Channel storm windows offer neglible infiltration and can be retrofit about anywhere. Foam-Tech and others can pump foam into the joist and stud bays of your home with minimal damage (from the inside).

Cheers!

Firedragon_4

Read this, it's Keyspan, again!

http://www.massoilheat.org/Saugusheatsoars.pdf

Firedragon_4

More good news:

http://www.boston.com/business/globe/articles/2004/08/29/locking_in_the_price_of_heating_oil_is_no_safe_bet/

Unknown

Looks bad for oil prices , worse for gas

Saw the price equvalent to oil for a Keyspan gas customer in Boston at $1.98 a gallon . A coworker of mine brought in his gas bill - he heats his home with it , and it works out to a little over $1.80 equivalent of oil .

Firedragon_4

Hey Ernie,

are you really Ernie F. from Natick, MA formerly of my home town?

If yes, they will be very lucky to get you.

Either way, a word to the wise, IIM. The utilities are a piece-of-work. I would suggest you contact my buddy Timmie at GTI. After everything I've heard my best advice is; if you like it there go with it, the world in a big company revolves around them, not you.

I love you, you're perfect, let's get married, now change!

Unknown

Ernie J

are you with Keyspan the Gas Company or Keyspan Home Energy Services headquartered over in Burlington, MA?

Welcome to the gas company world. I wish you a lot of luck. You will surely need it. After working for a gas utility for 28 years I have some very important advice for you. Watch your back!!! And PYOB (Protect Your Own Behind).

Steve Rose

back on topic for a sec

First off thanx for all the input.

Keyspan will not be doing any of this work but they do offer some incentives for the conversion. Those are:

1. Free boiler - up to a Burnham 208 (which is likely to be too small for my needs) OR

2. $350.00 cash back towards the purchase of the boiler.

I will use a local contractor and will begin to shop around in earnest once I have decided what it is exactly that I want to do.

I am aware that conversion is generally ill advised if new equipment is not required. Since my boiler needs (or should be) replaced, the decision becomes a bit more difficult.

The time to decide on gas vs oil is now and I could use a bit more opinion on that.

I would like then to pose the question to you all this way:

Given new construction and equal availabilty of both gas and oil. Woul you opt for oil fired or gas fired boiler for an hydronic baseboard heating system.

I will do the contractor search here once I can definitively say to said contractor what it is that I want to do.

As an aside, the "independent" contractor that keyspan hooked me up with to discuss this told me the 208 burnham would suffice - when I asked how he arrived at that he advised that he made a calculation based on the sq ft of the dwelling.

Interestingly, th tech person at Burnham suggested that a coin flip would be as acurate.

This experience leads me to conclude that I had better become somewhat of an expert in this area and make my own decisions - or at least be competent enough to participate in the process with a more learned contractor.

Hope I am not waring out my welcome here. Your input is most appreciated.

Leo

Gas vs Oil

If the gas company gets you upset you go to the gas company. If the oil company gets you upset open the phone book, YOU have choices. Oil companies often bend over backward to keep customers. New oil equipment serviced annually burns clean. If gas is so much better why do they give free (is it really free) equipment to get you to switch.

Leo