Combustion Testing Designed Equipment

Unknown

Something I wish manufacturers would do is provide a convenient test location on equipment for doing a combustion test. I am tired of drilling holes in stuff and having to plug them up, or worse yet having so many exit points from the heat exchanger that you can not get real accurate readings. How about some designs with a nice easy to use test spot that is readily available for use.

Oh well I guess I am dreaming, Hey they do not even tell us in their literature how to take a test - let alone say they want us to take one.

Say while we are dreaming how about alternatives for venting with or without a draft hood. Oh yeh the oil guys get to install there own automatic draft regulator (barometric) gas installers are not smart enough to know what to do with one of those.

I could go on but if you could design a piece of equipment what would you like to see????

Big Ed

You know what would happen don't ya?

Some one without SS (Service Sense) would run a pipe right over the manufactured test hole.....

I carry a awl and a box of roofing nails for the holes. And never put one in the sight of the owner. Always in the back......

J.C.A._3

Timmie,

I'm glad to say that both Teledyne-Laars and Phase 3 units I've installed recently have the "holes" you've requested. These "plugs" take the guesswork out of finding the proper spot to test from.

As you may remember, when Scott and I attended your testing workshop, the first thing I asked was am I checking things in the right place. You gave me the information I needed, and then told me that I WAS testing in the right places.(BIG confidence booster) You also went further to say that "oil guys are easier to teach than gas guys, because we've been at it a while longer".

I think that your asking for the same thing that I always wanted to know, but was shut out of. Due to crappy install instructions, this has been my biggest complaint while moving from the oil field to the gas field. Oil boilers state where to test the appliance in great detail, gas instruction manuals are far from precise, and sometimes confusing. The manufacturers don't come out and say where the test point should be. Teledyne and Phase3 put the plugs in the holes, and even give numbers that should be attained.
I have yet to see this from any other makers IN THEIR INSTRUCTION MANUAL.(Glenn Stanton scolded me for putting a hole in the first Revolution boiler I installed, but how else was I supposed to test it? Nothing in the install manual....I did plug it with an insert and a bit of high temp. silicone).

I hope you get a big response to this one Tim. I for 1 would be thankful for the manufacturer to give us some "standards" to test with, and follow on all installs, IN THE INSTALLATION MANUALS!!!! Chris

David_5

My take

I used to complain about equipment design or lack of it. I think the bigger problem is poor installation and service. How many boilers have had controls installed on the cleanout panel? How many circulators behind boilers where it almost impossible to see it, and change it at the same time. How about flue pipes pitched down and with no screws. Access panels up against walls. I'll take a poor piece of equipment properly installed over nice equipment poorly installed.

David

Paul B._2

Manufacturing Myopia

Excellent post Tim, I hope you do get a big response. I'm not sure we tell you how to conduct a combustion test in our literature, but I know we do expect you to do one, and to that end we give co2 and o2 information in our manuals on all the new gas fired equipment.

I have information available on many of the older pieces of equipment as well. some equipment, like the Mighty Therms we dont have good air free co and nox information, but as regulations become more stringent we will have to gather that as well.

So keep this thread running, and when you get up to Portsmouth for your training seminar in the next couple of weeks give me a call if you have time available. I'd love to have you come out to the factory and give me the results of the survey.

Paul B.

Paul B._2

IOM Manuals

Joannie and I revise manuals all the time. If you find something in one of Laars' manuals that is wrong, out of order or just doesn't make sense let us know, and we will get it changed in the next printing.

While we're on this I will make note that the most current versions of our manuals are always availble on the website.

Paul B.

Mark Hunt

Now that was one heck of a post Paul


A manufacturer that actually expects that a combustion analysis is performed. Kudos to LAARS!

Timmie always has a twist that only many years of experience can bring. So why no test holes???? I hate drilling pipe too.

Reminds me of a question I asked a rep from a very large boiler company a few years back. That being, "If you want us to skim the boiler, why do you plug the skim tap and then paint it shut forever?" He didn't have an answer.

I guess test taps will come about some time after testing is mandatory. That isn't too far off.

Glad to hear that LAARS is ahead of the curve on this!

Mark H

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LEAD PIPE

The Ultra has a test hole

and comes with instructions in the manual.

S Ebels

There are 2

One each in the intake and the exhaust on a Vitodens. Now THAT is a nice touch on a sealed combustion appliance!

Unknown

Take note that

the posts so far as to test points are on mostly high end equipment, or fairly new equipment which is good. Many of these new pieces of equipment have to have a combustion test done as they are using a negative pressure gas valve principal using combustion air to pre mix gas and control input. With that technology a combustion test is a must. I have asked for example the Heat Transfer guys to make provision for a test point. Paul Lessard had a great idea he showed me on a Munchkin we installed together. Still waiting for him to send me a sample!!!

You do not see test points on most warm air furnaces coming out today.

Many conventinal boilers do not have test points.

Unknown

David I agree,

would it not be a great world that has good installations of well designed equipment.

Unknown

While I am on this subject -

As a service person and sometimes installer I find it very frustrating that just about every piece of equipment coming out today needs to be small and wall hung. What does that mean, it means that controls and control boards are stuffed into a very small footprint and next to impossible to service. When you open up the cover a mess of wires hits you in the face all connected together with the dreaded "mated plugs". Why don't we use terminal boards??? Pushing test probes into mated plugs damages them, pulling them apart (when you can actually get them apart) damages connections. I tell techs to use small piece of wire connected to their alligator clip and test from the backside of mated plugs, but a terminal board would be so much easier. I also do not like junction boxes "J Boxes" I call Jacks-in-the-Box, when you open them up everything jumps out at you, again a terminal strip would solve the problem

I have been complainng about serviceability of equipment for over 40 years now. Some folks actually listen, but the majority keep on stuffing everything in.

J.C.A._3

I couldn't agree more Tim.

I had the occasion to change a gas valve in a Rinnai Continum this spring and it wasn't too much fun. To work on this stuff requires :

1. An eyeball on the end of a stick.

2. An elbow just about mid wrist.

3. One of those old flouresent combo ring light/magnifying glass units to see the writing on any connections.

I guess it could be worse but you're right. As things get smaller, my eyes get older and sometimes I just can't get far enough away from something to read it. (No comments from the peanut gallery...KEN!) Chris

Jim Davis_3

Test Holes

Most manufacturers think they already provide this hole, but they call it the gas pressure test hole. We all know that if your gas pressure is set for 3.5"WC on natural gas or 10"WC on propane your equipment has to run correctly. If they start providing a hole for combustion testing this could create another problem because now they would have to give us actual numbers that their equipment should run-Oxygen, CO, Flue Temperature and Delta T. Then when someone can't get these numbers in the field the cow droppings will hit the fan. Of course if they would start demanding that testing be performed they would lose 95% of their customer base. Over the years I know of only one manufacturer that would not warrant their equipment unless a combustion report was turned in with the warranty card. Of course 99% of these were fudged in the field. Another manufacturer would not talk to you on the phone about a service problem unless you had at least 5 or 6 required measurements, temperatures, CO2 etc. These were the exceptions. Actually furnace cabinets and air handlers should have test holes in them to measure static pressure. Water boilers should have pressure taps to test head pressure of the pump. Timmie, nothing would make you or me or are students happier but I am afraid we will be pushing up daisies before it happens. What really rocks my boat is that we have code officials and utilities and sometimes even manufacturers that won't allow us to drill holes to test. Seing how most holes for testing are going to be drilled in flue pipes not supplied by the manufacturer I think we are not going to see much change in our lifetime. Certainly would be great, oh well.