can't find leak in radiant floor

Steve Eayrs

Help..... I can't find a leak in a Wirsbo hepex radiant floor piping.
Have installed at least 100,000 feet of wirsbo and never had a leak I couldn't fix. Every leak I've ever seen has been the result of a nail or screw, usually the carpet layer or other trade.
I fear this one may be from a loose screw on the nail gun head, (as well the guy operating it), which may have caused a staple to hit a tube.

This is a stapled to the subfloor system, w/ gypcrete poured over it, and a real nice tile job on top. The system held a 100# air test no problem, when installed. Its evidently real small, since it took a week after teh boiler was fired up before showing up. Got about 80 sq.ft. of plywood underlayment wet enough to finailly find its way through and drip down the floor joists.
I have pumped the manifold up to 100lbs and it takes hours to lose more than a 1lb. The boiler will run with the feed off for a couple days before dopping more than a couple lbs.
I have cut away small holes through the bottomside of the subfloor, in the attempt to finding the leak and fixing from there. Don't want to tear up the custom tile job if possible. The gypcrete is dry everywhere we cut, but moisture is leaking out over an 80 to 100 sq.ft. area, and never enough in one area to locate the leak.
Am running out of ideas. Have though about isolating just that loop and pumping in colored water, but if it just runs in the same pattern of the existing moisture I won't be any closer to finding it.
Any ideas?

Steve

Steve Eayrs

can't find leak in radiant floor

Help..... I can't find a leak in a Wirsbo hepex radiant floor piping.
Have installed at least 100,000 feet of wirsbo and never had a leak I couldn't fix. Every leak I've ever seen has been the result of a nail or screw, usually the carpet layer or other trade.


I fear this one may be from a loose screw on the nail gun head, (as well the guy operating it), which may have caused a staple to hit a tube.


This is a stapled to the subfloor system, w/ gypcrete poured over it, and a real nice tile job on top. The system held a 100# air test no problem, when installed. Its evidently real small, since it took a week after teh boiler was fired up before showing up. Got about 80 sq.ft. of plywood underlayment wet enough to finailly find its way through and drip down the floor joists.


I have pumped the manifold up to 100lbs and it takes hours to lose more than a 1lb. The boiler will run with the feed off for a couple days before dopping more than a couple lbs.


I have cut away small holes through the bottomside of the subfloor, in the attempt to finding the leak and fixing from there. Don't want to tear up the custom tile job if possible. The gypcrete is dry everywhere we cut, but moisture is leaking out over an 80 to 100 sq.ft. area, and never enough in one area to locate the leak.


Am running out of ideas. Have though about isolating just that loop and pumping in colored water, but if it just runs in the same pattern of the existing moisture I won't be any closer to finding it.
Any ideas?

Steve

Ed_13

Leak in floor

Steve,

How about running the system at temperature and using a thermal imaging camera to see the point where the hot water releases from the footprint of the pipe.

I have a friend in the cleaning business that has one. He uses it to find wet areas inside walls after water leaks. It is amazing how sensitive a good camera can be. You can stand on a carpet covered floor then move, and the heat from your feet, (through your shoes) will remain in place and be clearly visible for a while.

I think that such a camera should be able to show the outline of the leak origin. Let the floor cool completely then heat up the boiler with the circulator off. Start the circulator with the boiler at temperature to show the pipe quickly. Hopefully the leak will show too.
Just a thought,

Good Luck

Ed Carey

Ed_13

Leak in floor

Steve,

How about running the system at temperature and using a thermal imaging camera to see the point where the hot water releases from the footprint of the pipe.

I have a friend in the cleaning business that has one. He uses it to find wet areas inside walls after water leaks. It is amazing how sensitive a good camera can be. You can stand on a carpet covered floor then move, and the heat from your feet, (through your shoes) will remain in place and be clearly visible for a while.

I think that such a camera should be able to show the outline of the leak origin. Let the floor cool completely then heat up the boiler with the circulator off. Start the circulator with the boiler at temperature to show the footprint of the pipe quickly. Hopefully the leak will show too.
Just a thought,

Good Luck

Ed Carey

Mark Eatherton1

WHat Ed sed, but...

Depressurize the system. Let it set for about 24 hours to cool off and dry out. Repressurize the system, AND heat it up, but keep circulator off. Water (hot) will flow to where the leak is, which can now be seen with either Infrared camera technology, or something as simple as a non surface contact thermometer (infrared technolgy on the bottom end of the $ scale).

It will work, has for me every time.

ME

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Steve Eayrs

thanks Mark and Ed

I have found where the tubes are many times with a infarred heat gun, but never found a leak with it. Will try it, or even better, I will try to borrow the spendy 20K camera that the local volunteer fire department has. I believe it could find it. I know they don't loan the thing out, but one of the guys working for me has spent a lot of years there and they may let him borrow it for an hour.


I think I will try your idea Mark. This is a Vitodens boiler, so it won't work exactly like you said, but I believe I should be able to just shut off the return side of the offending loop, and let the leak lead me to it. Seems to me the leak should be about the same place the pressurized loop cools off. Will crank up the temp some too. The only downfall may be it will not leak fast enough and cool too much before getting to the right spot. Will let you know what I find out.


Thanks for the idea, it may work.

Steve

Mark Eatherton1

Steve,

If you have a low loss header, you could disconnect the output pump, and leave the Vdens boiler pump running. What you DON"T want to do is send hot water throught he system with the pump. It will wash out your thermal image and mask the leak. With the system pressurized, and hot, you should be able to see the heat trace of the water flowing from the source to the leak.

I have, in the case of a low mass boiler, connected a conventional (temporairyly) DHW tank to the system to keep it pressurized with hot water.

Where theres a will....

Good Luck

ME

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hr

If all else fails

www.leakbusters has never failed me. They have a van full of hi-tech locating equipment, from sniffers to listening devises. Every single leak was pinpointed within an inch or two.

Well worth the $$s.

hot rod

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Joe@buderus

Had this happened to me a few years back. Check the fittings that attach the tubing to the manifolds. Had one that was loose (Wisbro compression type nuts) and would weep when heated and water slowly dripped down tubing (on the backside of tubing) into concrete then seeped through to wood subfloor a good distance away from manifold location.
Good luck!

Unknown

Steve... look for another

Steve,

If it takes that long to lose any pressure look for another ghost.

The gypcrete itself puts a TON of water into the house, then there is the dew points and cooling ducts, look at condesate lines, leaks in walls, roof leaks. But with what you have said, chase the ghost elsewhere.

wheels

Ken D.

Leaks

I have used an ATP (Amprobe) ultrasonic leak detector with good success. It was designed for the ACR guys for finding Freon leaks, but it works great for hydronics. We still have a fair amount of copper radiant that leaks from time to time in Levittown, Pa. as well as newer Wirsbo and Roth piping in Levittown and elsewhere. You turn on the detector and put on the headphones and you can hear the water piddling under the floor. Maybe one of your suppliers can give you one to test or maybe a collegue has one you can borrow.

Steve Eayrs

and the winner is...........

I hate to admit it, but its not leaking, but condensate. I was not told that they just cut in the crawlspace vents a couple days before they called me. I thought they were there all along, or I would have been more clued in as to the real problem.
I wasted a few hours to find this. Thanks Steve for the right answer, which I threw out as the real problem when I first showed up.

Steve

Unknown

what do I win?????

Oh, that's right, I just get to earn bragging rights :-)

Actually I am just happy that the problem is gone.

Amazing how quickly people's fears jump out when it comes to radiant. I once had someone tell me that a building was 2" off of level because of the radiant. In inspection we found all the lolly columns out of level. Whats the little bubble on the top for??????

Steve

jeff_25

heat up the floor then mop it or spray water with a bottle it will show were the tubes are and may be were the leak is because the spot will dry jeff

Ed_13

Good call

Mark,

I am glad it worked out for you.

Steve, good call. We were all looking at a few trees.

You were considering the entire forrest.

Regards,

Ed Carey

Ed_13

Good call

Mark,

I am glad it worked out for you.

Steve, good call. We were all looking at a few trees.

You were considering the entire forest

Regards,

Ed Carey

Ed_13

Good call

Mark,

I am glad it worked out for you.

Steve, good call. We were all looking at a few trees.

You were considering the entire forest : )

Regards,

Ed Carey

Ed_13

Good call

Mark,

I am glad it worked out for you.

Steve, good call. We were all looking at a few trees.

You were considering the entire forest : )

Regards,

Ed Carey