pex tubing

Charlesj

As I can see from my last thread Pex verses Copper that pex has almost every bodies approval....Now I'd like to know, well really my wife, since pex is some what new compaired to copper has any studies been done if there are chemicals that leach from the pex into the potable water....

John Starcher_4

None that I'm aware of.....

...in fact pex would be less suseptible (sp?) to "leaching" than copper if you have corrosive water quality.

Tim Doran, care to chime in?????

Starch

Tim Doran_2

NSF

All products be they pex or other that are for potable water use should/must be NSF listed. NSF ensures that these products are safe for the application. Make sure that your product of choice is NSF listed and you have no worries.

Tim D.

Boston Boiler

PEX

PEX is new the same as pressure treated lumber was once
the ultimate outdoor wood and then the horror stories
started coming after three quarters of the world was using it. How about waffer board sheathing on new construction homes. Moisture is not a friend to that money saving product. Also take note of high end housing and the lack of waffer board. Two of the biggest promoters of waffer board
are the contracted who saved a buck using this junk and the suckers who allowed it to be put on their homes.
Plastic has replaced a large amount of metal products over the years and works in places we never thought it would.
Then again things were once built to last and are now engineered to fail. (usually at warrantees end) Maybe thats why plastic is now the product of choice.

John Felciano

Pex

We started using pex BECAUSE the copper tubing was failing.

Pex isn't all that new it's been in use in other countries long before it was code acceptable here in the state.I seem to recall a 30 year track record for some.And accelerated testing has shown it's going to last a very long time.

To call pex plastic is no different than grouping all metal products in the same phrase.As we all know copper isn't the same as steel.By the same tokin pex isn't the same as PB or PVC.

Weezbo

is my experience with pex that it has some unique smell

of its own that is imparted to the water..however...once it is flushed the system is unlikely to absorb anything through the tubing walls...the pex that i have most familiarity with is stadler rehau and wirsbo...the use of these products in europe out dates us as it were...to date i am unaware of any operational dificulties or engineered glitches with these products...when building new homes the only use of metals in the water systems are the fixture valves ,the muni supplies (or Well)(holding tanks are plastic these days) and mechanical room components and associated visual piping. this is something i prefer as copper ,ss and yellow or red brass ,black iron looks straight.some short tails or well secured equally spaced tubing looks ok though.i digress...sorry. to answer and misgivings you may have check wirsbo..or rehau .rehau makes medi pex. i seriously see the benifits of the research and development of these products and thier applications.you can read all about it at these two sites.

Boston Boiler

Will the total cost of a project done in PEX be well under the same project being done in copper? The labor of pulling
PEX lines vs. sweating a copper fitting for even the slightest angles should be reduced greatly with this plastic
compound, correct? You consider the fact that PEX has been in use for a long time in other countries as proof that it's OK here? Then why did we do away with lead paint here.
I wouldn't want to be a plumber if your correct about the greatness of this product. With a plumbers skills being reduced to simply putting plastic pipes together I'm sure a new breed of tradesmen will be entering the plumbing field.
Home owners who would never tread the water of a torch between a floor joist to save a few bucks on a repair will probably give it a shot too. (Home Depot will accommadate their needs with product and saturday morning exhibits)
Sounds like your on a campaign to reduce the quality of your own profession.

Weezbo

Not really boston boiler.

there are indeed skills involved and a variety of quality issues involved. the same practises are involved alignement special tools,developed lengths,fixture units ,and there are some levels as in the case of the wirsbo residential fire-sprinkler system that have improved the level of potable water systems to something relavant to the century and millenium in which we live.galvy gave way to copper...coppers losing ground to high quality pex products and there installation procedures that allow fixtures to see less fluxuations in flow when other fixtures are in use. there are even underground pex-x-x that are in use for natural gas...ss also took black iron down a peg..i too own a threader or two...what is your take on HDPE ? now adays i can no longer get woodstave it seems to have gone bye bye...some of my friends who held out are now using the pex -a for slab heat in garages...others have taken to using it to encircle stairways on base board (copper fin convectors)runs. caution is a good policy ....however..the testing of these products is off the charts to verify every aspect of the tubing and fittings. joe homeowner will not find an equivalent in home Depot any day soon.and i am fairly certain the fittings dont really jibe as it were.so in a way while we have new tools to buy and more certifications blah bla blah our work has built in safe guards as it were from the over zealous guy with a wrench.

Boston Boiler

Maybe I got a little too defensive over someone elses trade.
Seems like a lot of new product is to save time and boost profit (both OK) but without taking quality into account.
I'm in MA so what I have seen of PEX has been limited to a peak at it in neighboring New Hampshire. I have a brother
inlaw who lost an upstairs bathroom floor and the ceiling below to plastic pipe but that was a few years back and I believe he called it "Quest". Either way it's a product of your profession that you will work with and warrantee.
See I have an open mind for change............as long as it's not in my house

John Felciano

PEX

Quest is not the same as pex.Thats the point I was trying to make in my comment about all metal not being the same.Plastic pipe has evolved the same as "metal" piping has evolved.

As far as your comment "Sounds like your on a campaign to reduce the quality of your own profession." I take serious offense.But I'm sure the same argument was made when drainage piping switched from cast iron to copper,than again when it changed to "plastic".Did the trade go downhill after that?I've seen many butchered copper jobs done by so called proffessional plumbers.It's not about the material,but rather the person installing it.

I get the same "craftsman" argument from fellow contractors in my area,most of which are older and unwilling to open their minds to new products and ideas.

Boston Boiler

Relax John, I admitted in my second post that I shouldn't have gotten so defensive over someone elses profession. To answer one of your questions, yes with PVC drains a few
new people stepped into the plumbing field. Anyone with
half a brain and a desire not to pay a plumbers rate learned
quick and easily how to cut, clean, and glue a section of PVC. Do I like PVC drains better? yes 100%. I like a lot of plastic products better. PVC handrails on decks and porches vs. wood, plastic bumbers on cars vs. chrome plated steel,
and PEX vs. copper are not on that list. The campaign comment wasn't intended as a personal attack but how I saw it. What would you think if you were seeing a whole group of Brick Masons bragging up prefab. chimneys. Lets be honest, there are many people without 1/10th the skills as a mason putting them up. Correct? Do prefabs work good? Sure do. Are they quicker and easier to put up? yes again. Will people will no masonary skills be able to install them correctly and will they work safe and efficiently? YES THEY WILL. What do we see on most new development homes? Prefab Chimneys. Do we see only masons installing them and are they the same strength and quality? You can answer that one.

jerry scharf_2

It's hard to give a difinitive answer

Charles,

Since what you're asking is could it possibly hurt us, it's kind of impossible to say no. There are a few comments that can add information, but nothing can ever prove safety.

There are two different areas that you have to look. First in the PEX itself. It doesn't have the bad things you don't want in water transport, mono-esters, heavy metals, etc. The Europeans are MUCH more concerned with this stuff, and they also consider it safe. If your incoming water tends to be slightly acidic as compared to basic or has significant sulphur content, then it is almost madnatory that you use PEX or other plastic. Copper is known to have health problems with these types of water. You kill algae with copper sulphate...

Now comes the hard part. Beyond the PEX, you have the other materials used to manufacture the tubing. These will vary by the manufacturer, and there is little regulation beyond them being non-toxic. It is doubtful that you could even get the information, let alone an assessment of the health risks. So I would do a few rounds of flush, sit for hours, flush to try to pick up as much of this as possible. The good thing is that these should rapidly reduce, so there isn't a significant cumulative exposure.

FWIW, I am using PEX in my house, and have all copper/bronze from the service main.

jerry

Unknown

so what exactly is your arguement

that easy to install things are bad, and only things that require professional knowledge to put together and maintain should ever be used?

Times change my friend. And MA's building codes are usually the last to change with them, I suspect precisely because of the implications of what you just posted being near and dear to their boards...

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Boston Boiler

No arguement, it's called an opinion. Mine being that PEX is a quicker, easier, install with less skill required to work it and the biggest dollar value going to the contractor. My ill opinion toward products like wafferboard, OSB, prefinished laminated hardwood flooring with a price tag higher than the real thing comes from seeing people who look toward the professional to steer them
in the best direction only to get screwed by these junk for profit products. I don't believe MA is the only state not embracing plastic domestic water supply pipes. Your opinion
of MA being last to come around really does mean a lot to me
though. The last post I saw you slamming MA code as not being the forefront of technology and poor drivers made me want to join you in your state but.........I couldn't get
there from here.

Unknown

I'm sorry MA's reputation among many people in the rest of new england bothers you. I have friends who have worked in the building industry in that state (read; building inspectors), and let's just say their comments about how it all works in terms of the beauracracy governing it are far less than complimentary. I dont' speak of the very small number of other states that have likewise not adopted PEX because I don't know people who have been involved in their building industries. I suspect the same beuracratic nonsense holds them back as well, however, being states that are large and known for their large beuracracies.

My comments are in no way shape or form directed at the hard working professionals who must operate under the MA system. You obviously care about workmanship and err on the side of tried and true solutions, and that's excellent, and I have utmost respect for a craftsman who cares for his craft, and I mean that completely sincerely.

It's just that PEX is really now a "tried and true" solution, in my opinion. This isn't year two or five since PEX hit the streets, it's year 30 or so.

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John Felciano

Boston

I am relaxed,very relaxed.I just felt I needed to respond to your comments.

It seems to me,like Rob pointed out, it's not so much the material but the fact that it's easy to install that bothers you the most.

Weve been useing pex for water piping for 5 or 6 years here in Connecticut and I really don't see it becoming a problem with homeoners or others jumping into the trade and piping their own houses.There are some but there were always some even when it was copper.

As far as it bringing unqualified people into the trades I'm not seeing that either.In Connecticut we have a very good apprentiship/licensing program,as I believe you in mass have also.If your going to put in 6 years to get your contractors license, your bound to learn something along the way.

The biggest problem I see with the trade in this area is the lack of new apprentices.And the ratio of journeymen needed to get new apprentices registered,but thats a whole new discusion.Maybe were spending too much time protecting those who are in the trade rather than attracting the next generation in????

I don't know how many massons are in your area,but I can tell you if EVERY new house got a masonary chimny housing would slow way down because there are simply not enough massons around,and the ones that are still around are very busy.It's not that much different in the plumbing/heating trade here.

jackchips_2

Pex

has been approved in Ma. The permit holder must seek permission as a "test" site but this is only a formallity until the revised code is finally approved. Something we have been waiting around eight years for but have been assured is only a few weeks away.

Ma. has a very stringent plumbing code both because of our consevative nature and strong lobbyist groups.

Boston Boiler

I am not offended by any reputation MA building industry has with the other New England states. Thats how it is within MA itself. I don't have a real problem with a lot of MA code, some could be better. I have several licenses and see more of a problem with different city and town inspectors. You can not delete anything from MA code (Any Trade) but cities and towns can add to it. To replace or do a new Boiler install in a town you are not familiar with a good idea is to stop by the fire dept. permit dept. and ask if code is OK or if they would like anything else. That goes for construction also. Depending on what city or town someone has worked in would determine if they like working in MA or not. The mason shortage in Connecticut is no surprise. We now have a lot of PT stairways along with precast stairs and prefab chimneys. Most high end housing still has the real thing but with a hefty cost. That was a big part of what I was saying about plunbers hurting their own market with PEX. NOT my trade Not my concern just an opinion. Future will determine how accurate an opinion it is. Guessing by the lack of people out here that came to my defense of copper I have a good idea that if I ever show up at a plumbers convention I'll probably get my **** kicked!

Boston Boiler

Jack Buddy, are you from the same state of MA as in Massachusetts that we are talking about. "our conservative nature" ????????
I can remember when a plumber and electrician had a hard time working together now they can marry each other. CONSERVATIVE NATURE??????
When you heard our lobbyist speaking and talking about coupling< that wasn't copper they were talking about!!!!

jackchips_2

LOL

BB, very funny stuff.

Actually the "our" that I used was conjuntive and not declarative. Just being a little PC without being politcal, if you get my drift.

Besides, I've seen some very attractive electricians.

Boston Boiler

Nope, You can't get me to touch that one. I already have to stay away from large groups of plumbers let alone a sparky
with a PEX carrying plumbing partner. Then NRT Rob would really have reason to think of me as a Masshole!!!!!!!!!

Unknown

hey now

I was born in MA, I wouldn't presume to call anyone a Masshole. Though I am much more of a MaineIac these days

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John Felciano

Boston Boiler

"Guessing by the lack of people out here that came to my defense of copper I have a good idea that if I ever show up at a plumbers convention I'll probably get my **** kicked!"

On the contrary,We have a difference of opinion,thats all.I wouldn't think twice about shaking your hand and buying you a beer.As a matter of fact I'll be in Boston for ISH/RPA this fall.If your there and see me please say hi.

We could discuss this till the cows came home and I'd doubt either of us would change our minds.

Unknown

why you'd be discussing it in a cattle barn though, I'm not sure

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Boston Boiler

Same here, a hand shake and a cold one always takes the edge off a heathy dicussion.

Mark Eatherton1

Hay now...

let's keep it clean here. This is a family channel...:=)

My friend, and now Bostoniac Corey Merchant warned me about you guys...:-)

I too will buy beers in Boston. Got any Sam Adams???

ME

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Steve Eayrs

Come on Boston Boiler.....

You should be able to understand why your opinion could cause offense. There is a lot more to being a good plumber than just knowing how to solder. A good self help, or Home Depot book could teach even you the fine art of soldering, and maybe not take more than a few trys to do a decent job.

I and many in my trade are not threatened of losing our jobs to home owners. Yes I will admit being a plumber and a decent good one, that takes pride in my work. Might also add I can hold my own in the boiler world too.

Have you not noticed that there is a shortage of good honest workers in any trade, who want to do the best possible job for the best price possible?

I don't care what trade you are in. The only reason you may have to worry, (about losing your job) is if you don't take any pride in your trade.

Wait there is one more reason to worry. You may get left behind. Copper was never suppost to be the last answer to progress, anymore than the horse & buggy. Progress should never be hindered by lobbyist or unions.
Am I correct to guess you are a union man?

Steve

Charlesj

Thanks for your heated feedback

I Was the one who started the thread & I want to thank everyone for thier opinions. Didn't want to start a ruckus in here though. I'm a diy'er for two reasons 1. I can do it & do it very well. Passess inspection with flying colors every time. 2. I get tired of waiting for subs to show up...so I do it myself. I think what makes a good professional weather your a plumber, electrician, or anyone in the trades is mostely ,do a job & the show up when you say....I'm glad this forum is here. Has answered a few of my question & I enjoy reading the threads....Thanks

Boston Boiler

Steve

Thanks for your comments, since you jumped in at #27 on the post and obviuosly didn't read many of the prior 26 let me help you out. I am not worried about being left behind because I am not a PLUMBER. I also said I should not had gotten so defensive of somebody elses trade. I figured since
almost every plumbing supply house I have ever been in has just about required a polygraph to prove you are in the field that plumbers more than anyone were big on turf protection. I'll stick with the soldering, brazing, & even some light welding, no Home Depot courses needed Thanks.
You will soon be seeing Free "take one" pamphlets on plastic piping from the Depot. I have already seen a Slant
Finn boiler on the second shelf at a MA H-Depot. Difference being the adverage H/O won't be trying it. Lets skip over the "taking pride in my work" until you step back and take a good look at a house plumbed in plastic. Not the picture
of quality and technology last time I looked. Yes I have noticed the shortage of good honest tradesmen who want to do the best possible job at the best price.........Thats why we are having this discussion.

John Felciano

BB

Now your getting all defensive again...

Pex may not look the same as copper,but it can be installed and look neat and proffessional.Believe me I've seen many more butchered copper jobs with globs of solder, crooked and poorly supported(done by licensed proffessionals) than I've seen bad pex jobs,Granted,copper has beed along longer.

Whats getting everyones hackels up is you are insinuating in your posts that anyone who uses pex is a non proffessional.

Boston Boiler

Sorry if I feel plumbing a house in plastic takes a lot of the needed plumbing skills away but that is how I see it.
Your attachment shows you put 100% into your work. Lets use something else for a second. A carpenter (frame to finish)
builds a shed in his back yard, the shed is unbelievably built to perfection. He teaches his neighbor to build sheds the same way and they too come out extremely well. Does that mean the neighbor is a frame to finish carpenter now,
NO he a good shed builder. Your job shows perfection because your skills exceed what was needed for that project.
What skill level will the next generation of plumbers have to meet? Personally I would not be comfortable closing the walls will plastic in them. Everone thought compression fittings were great on oil lines too right? What do we do when we see one now? Anyway, take the plumbing trade in any direction you gentlemen want because once again I am not a plumber and don't plan on being a plumber. I think I'll find a site where manual machinist who thought CNC's were great and are now making peanuts because anybody can run them as along as someone else programs them and see what they think!!

jerry scharf_2

sigh

BB,

What you seem to continue to not understand is that the skill needed to be a plumber is not measured in the ability to sweat copper. Felcie's work looks the way it does not because he learned to sweat copper. It looks the way it works because he has the ability to think the job through and execute it in a neat and logical way. As you look at the pictures on the site, you should begin to understand that it's the ability to visualize the solution and the dedication to excellence that set these people apart. There are many plumbers who never learned to do a lead joint waste stack, and yet they can be excellent plumbers who do outstanding work.

I seriously doubt that this change will drop the skill level of the trade. Now the fact that having a trade as your profession is now considered less noble and more second class has had a great impact. The fact that tradespeople seem to have less pride as a whole than they used to certainly has a huge impact.

time to let this thread die.

jerry

Boston Boiler

The fact that John aquired the skills of thinking out 90*'s, & 45*'s to get from point A to B and where he was going to be able to get a flame on a 90* in a tight space without any damage certainly made it a real lot easier to pull a plastic pipe through a wall. Give me a break Jerry, we all know the degree of time saved alone is only compared to sheetrock vs. hand troweled plaster. Without any arguement of the product itself face up that you have got a product that is a mega time saver and easy to use. Hold on tight to the skill stories so that there is no need to compensate labor cost and enjoy it while it last. Since nail guns came out a lot more college kids can be seen doing summer construction work but the price haven't dropped for the construction company owner. (only
the laborers) MA, and I believe CA, & NY all think PEX sucks
weather it be because skilled tradesmen are protecting what is their trade and lively hood or the fact that any plastic
compound contains resins such as PVC (poly vinyl chloride) and possibly PCB's and that may not be a good thing but it is another subject. Well I have got plans for this nice September day so I'm otta here.......Don't forget to say a
prayer for our fellow Americans lost 3 years ago today to the back fighting cowards that attacked us!!!!!!!!!!

Steve Eayrs

boston boiler

I wrote what I wrote, fully aware of all that was said, and also knew you were not a plumber. You seem to be missing the point.

I would venture to guess that progress put most of the makers of lead goblets out of bussiness. The smarter ones switched early (if they had any brain left), and used other optional material and stayed in business. They considered the new optional materials as an opportunity to meet the new demand, not the thing that was going to shut them down. Its the old "is the glass half full or half empty" thing.


Progress always does have a price.


Please undersand that copper still has its uses. We still do most of our boilers in copper, but be warned,
some like me, like the wirsbo multicor. I finally bought the tools, and have done a couple systems with it. It works good, is faster to install, but requires skill to end up with a great looking system.


Steve

S Davis

ProPress

I wonder how Mr. Boston Boiler feels about the Propress fitting system for copper, is this advancement bad for the plumbing and heating trade as well?

S Davis


Apex Radiant Heating

J.C.A._3

Are you ,

Hitting the hornets nest with a stick, man?

I liked the part when everyone was sharing beer, so I'll just stop now. Chris

Rookie_3

ProPress?

You think ProPress is a plus for advancement? The makers acknowledge that it's no good with oil, grease,diesel fuel,
or gasoline. Not supported with natual gas. No DWV pipe.
No refridgerants, No fire protection systems, and no medical
gas. Why would I want this product within 10' of any heating system. The 200 psi rating means a lot to me since
even the maker doesn't trust it with natual gas. (7"w.c.)
I was wrong when I said I had no support in my favor, I have you bringing this type of product as advancement.

Unknown

I too am curious,,,

if the pro-press system is in fact an "advancement" that will stand the test of time. However, this is a topic for another NEW thread. This one has gone on far too long and has got a bit off topic at this point. I too like the cold drink idea and hope we can debate this further in October.

As for PEX-PAP being good, bad or an advancement to the plumbing OR hydronics industry? I give them both TWO thumbs up even here in the People's Republic of MA;-) A simple variance form faxed to my rep is all I need to install potable PEX and I've got miles of it in. I've never had ANY problems with the Wirsbo line to date and don't expect to see any failures of tubing or fittings for at least a couple hundred years. Further, I would PREFER it over copper in my own house. Even if it cost me more.

Boston Boiler; Try it. You'll like it:-)

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Rookie_3

Gary

With all due respect my friend no plastic for me. My home is entirely over code from the footings to the rafters. Please don't use a variance as support for much of anything in MA. I can show you a house that was denied a city permit because of wetlands that went to the state and they literally have a moat around their house and a 3' pipe under their driveway. We also have houses put on lots sideways because the board of appeals gave them a variance.