Situation, meeting at 4 this afternoon

S Ebels

A building owner who; A. is a lawyer B. has a very lucrative lease agreement with the State of Mich. C. Has a mold problem in said building. D. Has asked me to recommend solution(s) E. Want's a cheap solution to a $60,000 problem. F In this afternoon's meeting is likely to say he won't spend what it takes to fix the problem(s) with the HVAC system and the building itself.

So........ my question is, If he refuses to accept my proposal, should I say Hasta La Vista Baby or ask him to sign a hold harmless agreement with my company and continue to do maint and repair for this building. It is a boatload of work each year so I hate to walk away from it. On the other hand I certainly don't want to get in the middle of something I didn't have anything to do with in the first place.

Suggestions?? Alternatives??

George_10

Here is my take on your situation

I would play poker with the guy. Explain what your concerns are and why. Tell him if he will sign a hold harmless agreement, you will continue doing the work that you have been doing, but you will not take any responsibility for his problem, as you were not a party to it, either the cause or the catalyst.

If you do this correctly, he will more than likely not call your bluff if it is that. I would not want to deal with him under any other circumstances as you are just creating a potential liability for yourself and your insurance carrier.

Some times you would be amazed how straight talk wins the day. On the other hand, he has very little choice if his tenant is the government. Also, if his problem is not fixed, he is in for a lawsuit himself since he has prior knowledge of the problem and could not he held harmless himself.

The money you currently enjoy from this acct could be very expensive in the long run.

John Starcher_4

Another concern.....

....Steve, is how much liability do YOU have since you know about the problem? Is there any chance you can get in trouble for not reporting the mold situation?

I hope you can arrive at an equitable solution. Good luck!

Starch

Robert O'Connor_7

I would ..

Send him the agreement and or and include the waiver again, but this time re-send it Certified Return Receipt Mail.. Cover your butt. Good luck..Robert O'Connor/NJ

George_10

You used a key word in your post

"Lucrative" He is just going to have to bite the bullet to continue his "lucrative deal with the state"

That is your leverage, as he has to fix the problem, or the state will move to another real estate deal. If he keeps it a secret from the state, he is opening himself up to fraud and a possibility of a huge liability. Landlords can be held liable for unsafe conditions. It is even more egregious if he knows of the problem and puts his tenants in harms way.

Paul Rohrs_2

Amen to the certified mail

It is a thing of beauty when you actually have to sign for a piece of mail and you know the sender is going to get a receipt saying that you signed for. It is $4.40 well spent. Don't count on a UPS driver leaving on a doorstep and HO saying they "never got it".

Regards,

PR

[Deleted User]

A radio ad in our

area goes something like this.

"Is there a mold problem in your apartment or place of work? Do you think it may be affecting your health? Has your landlord or company addressed the problem? Has the mold been eliminated? If not, call Dewey, Cheatum & Howe. We can solve your problem."

And. The guy you are dealing with is a member of the fraternity.

J.C.A._3

Ron,

The sons have now taken over the business. The new name is Ben, Dover and Makeithurt, Esquires.

Steve, be wary and don't forget to CYA. This sounds like a lose/lose proposition to me.

As a Lawyer friend recently stated to me, "Mold is the new Asbestos", to the business. Chris

Mike T., Swampeast MO

Amen, George

Don't let him try to move the liability to you!!!

Ed_13

Mold Problem

Not trying to provoke an argument, but just making an observation. Are you qualified to actually deal with the mold issue in the HVAC system. I have no question that you are an HVAC expert, but are you a Mold expert. There is a big difference.

Normally the mold remediation procedure is defined by a CIH (Certified Industrial Hygienist), which is properly trained and certified in defining parameters of the mold remediation. They tell you what you need to do to treat the condition in the HVAC system. Demand the instructions in writing.

If your people are properly trained to perform the work that the CIH defines as necessary, then you proceed and do what you are told. After you are done, THEY (the CIH) comes back and performs clearance testing, and then the CIH will certify in writing that the building is safe. As long as you do exactly the work you were told to do, exactly as you were told to do it, you are not responsible, the CIH is.

If you do not have such qualifications and training, simply tell your customer. It is his job to find a CIH to tell you what to do, and you then charge accordingly for the work that you were told to do. It is not your job to take responsibility for the problems in his building, and maybe get in trouble doing so.

If YOU decide what steps are to be taken to deal with the mold issue, you then become fully responsible for the results. I can assure you, a government agency (as a tenant) will have someone watch that job like a hawk, and it WILL be done correctly before all is said & done. Your customer will have to pay someone to do the work, correctly.

JMHO

Ed Carey

Mark Hunt

I'm not sure


that you could completely cover yourself in a situation like this.

Mold is a hot button and if the building has a problem that you(a professional that's supposed to know better) know about, you could still get nailed if someone files a suit.

After attending numerous building science courses on mold remediation, I wouldn't touch it with a 50' pole. Here's why.

Let's say you do a remediation job and when the job is complete you sign off on it. Mold is gone. As your crew is packing up, a delivery person brings a computer that was out for repair back into the building. The repaired computer is promptly installed and put back into service. What we don't know is that the building that the computer was being worked on has a MOLD problem. Mold spores were pulled into the computer via the fan. Now we have new "mold babies" floating around looking for a new home.

One week later you get "the call".

A study was done in Canada a few years back where a piece of gypsum board was placed in a sterile plastic bag and allowed to sit for a few days. It grew mold. The sample was taken from a piece of board right at the mill where it was made, right after it was completed. Never left the mill.

Steve, you are a smart man and I would never presume to preach to you, but this is one situation that I would advise EXTREME caution. That lawyer knows full well about mold litigations. You get paid for your knowledge of heating systems, he gets paid for his knowledge on legal documents.

I hope it turns out well for you.

Mark H

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Bill_14

Walk

You will own these problems from now on if you are not totally qualified, both technically & legally. It is truly a lose-lose situation. This could haunt you for a long, long time...surely, you have better things to do.

Bill

Bill_14

oops

It is too late for much advice since it is past your 4:00 meeting time. Hope things happened in your favor.

Please bear in mind that it is really difficult (probably impossible) to contract away any possible negiligence on your part, real or not. I can assure you that any average lawyer can show that you were negligent with something you did or did not do. Your "hold harmless" clause will not do much good if "negligence" became a legal issue later.

Bill

Weezbo

You opened a couple holes at random in the walls?

for your own curiosity...? if its in one or both random holes in the walls you just patch them up real qiuck and plead insanity:) or place one foot infront of the other and beat it down the street:)))Shouting Really really Loud YOULL Never Take Me ALIVE! ))sorry...i've been there.if and when its comming from inside the walls the procedure is likely to be a bit spendier than you may have first tabulated. i have no easy answer for that.and the word lubricative comes to mind as to the agreement hes enjoyed with the state.....

S Ebels

Thanks to all of you!

As always the sages of The Wall freely dispense their wisdom.

The meeting went well, I had time to scan through a few of the posts before I had to go and they helped me to crystalize my thinking on a couple things.

Number one was that I needed to make clear to them that I was not "The Mold Remediation Guy" in any way shape or form. My interests and purpose in the project are limited to repairing/correcting/updating the system so the problem doesn't rear its ugly head again once it's addressed. I was not there to take care of the existing mold. I could not take care of the existing mold because it falls outside my area of expertise.

Number two was that in the event that they choose to be selective with my recommendations, (a list of nine different items) all performance assumptions are off! They either bite the whole bullet or nothing.

I called my lawyer and he asked if I had documented everything I had done in the building including dates and times. I had, all on the service records. He said if I had proof of existing conditions, it should be no problem to draw up a hold harmless document that protect us from not only the owner but any other parties involved including the building tenants.

Swimming with the sharks is kind of exhilarating!

S Ebels

Partial list of what's wrong in this building

There are 9 Trane air handlers in this building, 7 of which are in a "mechanical room". if it can be called that, up in the attic. ( Visuallize a room with a triangular cross-section, 8ft wide at the base, 6' tall and 70ft long) None of them have secondary drain pans underneath them. In order to install the pans, each unit will have to be cut lose from the refrigerant piping, the hydronic piping and the duct work, elevated and a pan slipped underneath. There was no provision made for a secondary drain so that will have to be installed also.

This mechanical room is not sealed off from the rest of the attic by anything other than 3 1/2" of batt insulation stuffed into the roof trusses. Consequently, huge amounts of heat escape into the attic causing ice build up on the roof of Biblical proportion. This is one cause of their water problem. This construction actually met code because there is no fuel burning equipment in the attic, just the AHU's. It didn't have to be drywalled. Technically, according to code when built, (1996-97) it didn't even have to be insulated.

In addition to the nine AHU's there are 7 zones of perimeter baseboard. Each of these 16 "zones" has it's own thermostat. In several locations in the building, these stats are within a few feet of each other. I have been in the building when it's 10* outside and a given zone may be calling for heat while the one adjacent to it has the A/C running. Makes a lot of sense doesn't it!!!

None of the 9 A/C units are set up for cold weather operation. This causes head pressure to plummet and the evap coils to turn into solid blocks of ice when ambient is low, in turn causing more water problems naturally. The outdoor units are dying at a regular rate due to refrigerant flood back conditions also. The building has a huge cooling load due to computers and office equipment on every desk and work station so the A/C's have to run even in mild (20*) winter weather. Again, it met code but the design is STUPID!!!

None of the ventilation air ducts are terminated outside they are all just stubbed in to the attic above the "mech room". This allows a fair amount of warm building air to escape into the attic also when the units are off. It also sucks in nice 120*+ air in the summertime. DUH!

All of the AHU's were installed with the service access door 1 1/2" from the attic wall making it necessary to cut the insulation out of the way and service them from in the actual attic. REAL SMART EH?

The sad part of this is that most of it met code at the time of construction so the building owner has little to no recourse on the construction company which was also responsible for the mechanical design and installation.

I really feel sorry for the guy even if he is a lawyer.

Chris_7

John R. Hall

Steve

This sounds like an interesting story. I'm going to a meeting of the Mechanical Inspectors Association of Michigan on Friday in Grand Rapids. Mind if I take this thread and show it around?

jerry scharf_2

Wait for the CIH

Steve,

I understand your thinking about making a recoomendation, but with the existing mold I would step back. There needs to be a Industrial Hygenist, and they will make their report for both the remediation of existing mold and system redesign to prevent future mold.

I would encourage the lawyer to forward your proposal to the selected CIH and encourage a dialog between you and the CIH. That way both the present and future mold issues are clearly in someone else's lap and most of your proposal will show up in the report.

Your hold harmless document is fine if the owner were to sue you. If an occupant of the building were to sue and name both the owner and you, I don't believe the hold harmless will help. You touched the system and they are sick, they have the right to try to sue you. Even if you were to prevail in the case, from my point of view you still lose. If you wait for the CIH report and follow it to the letter, then you do have you get out of jail free card.

just my thoughts, jerry

S Ebels

FYI here's what I'm recommending

1. Install and pipe secondary drain pans under all attic AHU's

2.Vent all air handlers and combustion air ducts through roof and terminate outdoors.

3. Install a DDC control system to monitor temp and humidity in entire building. This will include replacing failed zone valves (4 that I know of) with modulating type instead of bang/bangs. The DDC will stage the cooling when outdoor ambient is below 50* to first try to cool the building with the ventilation ducting and then fire the condensers if needed. The system will be internet connected to enable the building manager to monitor what's going on. It will also have room occupancy sensors to automatically set back areas that are not being used.

4. Install cold weather kits on all 9 A/C units

5. Install mixing valve and control to allow boiler (standard cast iron type) to safely operate at variable temps instead of sitting at 200* 24/7. {The TT connection is now jumped} Control of the boiler consists of the on/off switch.

6. Install Lifebreath selfpowered TFP filters on each of the 9 AHU's

7. Manually clean 9 AHU's, internal drain pans, brush and vac duct system and sanitize AHU's

8. Scheduled maintenance program to check entire system(monthly) plus monitor system performance through DDC control weekly. [We are now on an as needed basis. Don't call us, We'll call you]

9. Install additional insulation in attic to R-30. Install air barrier in upper mechanical room to prevent heat migrating to the unconditioned attic. Provide access doors to attic in order to service AHU's. Locate, remove and replace contaminated building materials as and if needed.

Items 1-8 are what we would do. Item 9 is described as "by others" on my recommendation list.

I followed this with the following statement.
"These repairs, additions and changes, if applied as a whole package have a high probability of eliminating or at least alleviating the following conditions.

Complaints about occupant comfort

Water problems above ceiling

Water and ice problems on roof

Water damage to interior walls and ceilings

Improvement of indoor air quality

Reduction of HVAC system operating costs due to increased system efficiency

Reduction of HVAC system maintenance costs

Increased life of mechanical equipment now in use.

"No guarantee is made or implied that these changes, repairs and additions to the HVAC system and building structure itself will eliminate all problems that are now present in the building." Note: Ebels Heating Inc. has a mold coverage exclusion on its company insurance policy and is not liable for any damage to the building due to pre-existing conditions brought about by poor engineering, design, installation and maintenance of the HVAC system and the building itself.


SOOOOOOOoooooo how'm I doin'. Have I shot myself yet?

John MacGregor_3

MOLD

The first thing I would, and have done, is to call, or have your client call, an environmental consulting firm that is qualified and insured to make recommendations and corrections to a mold problem. That way, all you have to do is follow the directions of the experts, some of which will be to hire a certified mold abatement firm. These folks have to follow the same regimen as the asbestos abatement people, and you don't really want to get into that mess.
As I understand it, you are located somewhere in Michigan. We use Environmental Testing & Consulting, Inc., out of Traverse City. They also have an office in Romulus. Their T.C. number is 231-935-1772. John Prokes is our contact there.
Don't try to out-lyer a lawyer, they'll bite you everytime.

jerry scharf_2

Still doesn't work for me

Steve,

Maybe all this is from living in California, where the right to sue is god given and well used!

Remember that tenant employee suits are the expensive ones, and the lawyers really love these. Their general game plan is to represent a number of sick employees, name everyone including the government as employer. Everyone else settles and the government has the deep pockets to pay the rest. Not something you want to be a party to in any way!

All the agreements and such between you and the owner won't protect you from a tenant suit, IMO. You are an expert and you touched the system. You made money servicing the building. That's enough for a lawyer to name you as a defendent and it's likely enough to keep a judge from dismissing you as a defendent. You may be exonerated in the long run, but not without a great deal of legal expense and frustration on your part.

That mold exclusion on your insurance policy is a really scary thing as well. What that says is that if you get a finger put on you relative to mold, your insurance company is nowhere to be seen. No legal support, no compensation, no nothing. Nothing is not quite true, they may cancel your insurance afterwards...

My worthless advice is to run, hide, wait for the CIH to tell you what to do! Then if someone names you, your lawyer talks to the judge, show them the CIH report, your work documents and the CIH's final certification. You then stand a good chance that the judge will dismiss you as a defendent. Then they can name the CIH but you're in the clear. You would still most likely be deposed and all you maintenance records for the building asked for, but that's cheap compared to the nasty part.

If you ever want to read a good but slightly depressing book on construction, check out "Joe Boyd's Build It Twice." 30 years as a construction manager and building dispute mediator/arbitrator make him the ultimate curmudgeon (sp?) but it's all earned. It could also be subtitled "How 75 people, many of whom you never met, can screw you as an owner having a building constructed."

As always, I'm not a lawyer and I tend to take a worst case view of legal risk. All my advice is worth exactly what was paid, I tossed in the tupence.

best of luck, jerry

John R. Hall

An old mold case revisited

Steve:

Whatever became of this? The reason that I ask is because I am working on a mold story involving a school building. This would make an interesting sidebar story.

Thanks!

Mad Dog

I couldn't say it any better Than George

Just have an independent attorney review your "hold blameless" waiver carefully for any holes in the dike. Mad Dog

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Mad Dog

Yeah....and another fear-mongering campaign

Asbestos is harmful to everyone atleast. A little stachibotris will not bother most people, but the hysteria will continue. Mad Dog

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Weezbo

this was informative type post .....i liked a P.E. here ,

He went to washington D.C. as a speaker about the mold issues...i suggested he didnt go...well, kill the messenger is still in full force. *~/:)

John R. Hall

Hmmm

I think I might have been insulted -- hard to tell with Weez. :-)?

THP_2

Steve Ebels Mold

Steve are you looking for a new job.
Talk to you soon on a land line.

THP

S Ebels

As it stands...........

We are in the middle of the job. After much discussion we made it perfectly clear that we are not addressing the existing fungi problem. This is crystal clear in the minds of all parties involved, both tenants and owner.

We are have/are taking the following courses of action which are aimed at helping to prevent a recurrence of their present problem(s)

In January we installed 3 Lifebreath TFP filters. These are the freestanding type and we placed them right out in the office work areas. The employees report a very pronounced difference in the indoor air quality. One told me that she is able to wear her contacts to work for the first time in three years. Another stated that she hasn't had an athsma attack since the filters were placed. Many others have noticed the difference also.

As a temporary fix, heat cables were installed on the roof to prevent ice buildup in the valley areas. This has stopped the leaks that came from that problem until they can address the issues with the building envelope itself. (There are dozens out of my arrea of expertise) They still have a huge problem with attic ventilation and heat escaping from below to the attic.

We are about done with designing a building management system that will integrate all the HVAC functions and will probably start running control wiring for that system yet this month. It will include fresh air ventilation utilizing the existing AHU's and motorized dampers, cooling via outside air as a first stage instead of calling the AC condensers on at 10*. (they smoked another condenser this winter) The system will also provide low temp shutdown of all the condensers, modulate zone valves for the baseboard side and the AHU's, provide freeze protection for the hot water coils and read 16 room sensors used to monitor temp and humidity levels.

Secondary drain pans have been fabricated and we are waiting for warm wethr so we can shut down the boiler and cut all the AHU's loose up in the "mecahnical room", elevate them and place the pans underneath.

After all the commotion is done and the dust has settled we're going to have the duct cleaned and we'll sanitize the evap coils, drain pans and the interior of the AHU's.

Interesting note: To satisfy my own curiosity, I did my own air test, got the sampling dishes, set 'em out, sent 'em out to a lab. Most of the airborne irritants/contaminants consisted of paper particles! In an office building! Go figure!!

S Ebels

Need my number?

> Steve are you looking for a new job. Talk to you

> soon on a land line.

> THP

S Ebels

Need my number? Tom?

I get new jobs everyday ?:)

Weezbo

He can be doing that all day long any where in the world...

so dont think for a momment that there is any miscommunication.*~/:)

GMcD

A good exercise

Would be to total the costs for the HVAC "solutions" to the remdiation, along with the on-going operating cost of the additional equipment, and compare that to the first costs of doing the building envelope design right in the first place and show the Owner the true cost of the initial capital cost "savings". There has to be a way of quantifying the risk and future cost of scrimping on the first costs to use as a design tool for the next time someone wants to build a "cost-effective" spec office building.

Weezbo

Geoff That is a really clear means of solidifying the real cost

the only other thing might be handy is adding in the cost of lawyer fees that were adverted...:)