Barometric Draft dampers

tommyoil

Would anyone consider it a crime of the trade to not use a barometric? Are they required by code? I currently have a situation where draft stinks, until I cover the regulator. Then its on the money. Chimney has new stainless liner and fully heated my readings are as required w/o the damper. To be perfectly honest here (as I'm sure we all are) I actually only installed them if I had excessive draft in the past. Got busted w/o one on an inspection and now its a must.Are they a must all the time? May seem like an elementary question but we are in a small battle over this issue. OK guys... lets hear it! As always THANKS in advance.

David_5

I've left them out before

If I felt the draft was never going to be too great I've left it out. I also have had an inspector "catch me". Rather than argue I installed one. I don't believe it is in a code that you have to. When in doubt refer to manufacturer.

David

J.C.A._3

Tommyoil,

Make sure you have the "manufacturers instructions" on hand. I also got bagged for not installing a barometric damper once. When I showed the inspector the instruction sheet, I was absolved,(H.B.Smith boiler). Nowhere in the instructions did it say that one had to be installed. Matter of fact, it said to ONLY install one if the draft was over....(I want to say FD/WD series, but don't hold me to that!)Chris.

Jim Davis_3

Barometrics

Tommyoil you have a problem. If you cannot get draft in your chimney above -.03"W.C. to -.04"W.C. you have either a restrictive flue, often caused by flue liners, or a negative pressure problem in your mechanical room. Eliminating a barometric only hides the problem it doesn't fix it. Burners require a fixed amount of air across them to maintain consistency. What guarantees that this low draft won't get lower? If draft does increase all the heat will be sucked up the flue. Chimneys control burner air. Draft in chimeys constantly changes which changes fuel/air mixture. Even on large commercial burners uncontrolled draft can be a maintenance and efficiency nightmare.

Biged

I'm assuming you are refering to oil fired appliances
The code here in Mass. specifically says one must be installed unless appliance design, conditon of installation or a combination precludes excessive chimney draft or the applinces is listed to exclude one.
I guess they allow you to evaluate the job site to make sure you need one. I don't know of any situation that would not create excessive draft at least sometimes. I put one on every install.

Unknown

As most have stated

the intention of the barometric is not necessarily to improve a poor draft condition, but to try and maintain a consistent over-fire draft when conditions change and they certainly do change. For that reason, most manufacturers will state that one is required on the installation. Excessive draft through the boiler can cause loss of flame retention and possibly flame impingement. Hope this helps.

Glenn Stanton

Burnham Hydronics

Firedragon_4

You're right Biged, the code in MA

527CMR4.00 and NFPA31 and NFPA211 require a draft regulator unless specifically excluded by an OEM as is the case with Smith's 8 Series.

Most powerventers require them, many direct vents on oil don't instead prefering a proving switch or vacuum breaker. Best to always read the I&O Manuals.

ernie_3

Best to have it

I just installed a Dunkirk O/F direct vent which specifically states NO barometric damper. Make up air vith Vacuum breaking tee a must. Inspector didn't like it but you can't argue w' the instruction manual. I digress....
Aren't we missing something here w' chimney vented O/F equipment. Barometric pressures change CONSTANTLY. How could we possibly maintain stable flue passage w'out a barometric damper. We could never stabilize efficiency over a heating season. Maybe I'm mistaken but until someone comes up w' a better 'stabilizer' to address barometric changes in the atmosphere I'm sticking w' a damper.

Maine Ken

Even with a dv set up??????

Unknown

We have a few hundred of these

burning fine without a draft damper . Simply no place to install one . Draft readings are usually -.02 to -.04 at the breech .

Ken_8

Very little \"bleed\" is

required in summer; presumably for D/H/W operation?

But in winter, when the outside air is much "heavier" and the byproducts so proportionally lighter, you'll likely lift the flame right off the end cone and experience intermittent flame outs!

The main reason for draft regulators (I always hated the term "barometric" - since thay have absolutely nothing to do with the barometric pressure) is not for summertime use when draft is minimal and even inverse on extremely warm days - but rather for cool, and down right cold air temperatures - that must have "bleed off" provided by the draft regulator.

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Firedragon_4

My 3.5 cents worth and

will probably regret saying this. I do not like regulators, period, end of story.

Installed new (oil) burner/boiler in my own home WITHOUT draft regulator 29 years ago and counting this Thanksgiving weekend with no problems of any kind.

4 to 4-1/2 years between tune-ups, no detachment, CO or smoke of any kind, instruments don't lie, people do!

Oilburners can't read, so it just keeps working. Have also supervised and done dozens this way. If it's wrong, it's wrong, but ya can't prove it by me.

I believe in adequate inlet draft (air), combustion draft (air) and venting draft. Balance them, everything works. My hero on draft was an engineer from Germany named Dr. Mueller, read his stuff, you become a GIT*.


*GIT = Genius In Training :-)

Firedragon_4

Nice job, as usual!

Jack_21

Hi George

We have been discussing whether to drop the requiremnt in 31. There are many systems today that are better off without them. I think this will pass but not sure of the time. Our next edition of the code is Jan 06. Personally, I'd like to see it adopted.

Firedragon_4

Hi Jack, we still need to

do lunch some time. I would drop the requirement in 31 and make it an installer's decision, JMO.

I was just at a very informative meeting of several OEM's. The unanimous consensus was 'dump em', educate and leave it to the installers.

The time has come to drop these things. The 'we always did it that way' boys need to be shot, once and for all! Just because they were needed a 100 years ago when stack temps were 700F+ doesn't necessitate the need anymore.

The powerburners (both gas and oil) just don't need them anymore unless the job in fact screams for them and if they were left out they'll have to be put in.

Atmospheric just ain't my thing nor the LFC/31's and it's a dinosaur that should be killed, ground up and made into patties and eaten, JMO!

Blown gas and oil will rule the day, the Euro's know that. Call me sometime, see ya!

Jack_21

As always, George, strong opinions

I'm with you...well except for the "shot" part. Look forward to seeing you soon!

Gary Reecher

> will probably regret saying this. I do not like

> regulators, period, end of story.

>

> Installed

> new (oil) burner/boiler in my own home WITHOUT

> draft regulator 29 years ago and counting this

> Thanksgiving weekend with no problems of any

> kind.

>

> 4 to 4-1/2 years between tune-ups, no

> detachment, CO or smoke of any kind, instruments

> don't lie, people do!

>

> Oilburners can't read,

> so it just keeps working. Have also supervised

> and done dozens this way. If it's wrong, it's

> wrong, but ya can't prove it by me.

>

> I believe

> in adequate inlet draft (air), combustion draft

> (air) and venting draft. Balance them, everything

> works. My hero on draft was an engineer from

> Germany named Dr. Mueller, read his stuff, you

> become a GIT*.

>

> *GIT = Genius In Training :-)




Do you or Alan have this book available or know of a source?

Firedragon_4

Thanks Jack!

Firedragon_4

Let me see if I can find one in my archives.

Jim Davis_3

Laws of Physics

"For every action there is an equal and opposite reaction." Some manufacturers have stated that their equipment operates fine without draft control. Back in the 80's when doing energy audits and fuel studies any equipment without draft control used 15% to 40% more fuel(depended on height of chimney & process versus heating). They did run fine or at least they ran. It is easy to compensate for no draft control by underfiring. This can prevent soot or smoke even at insufficient draft. Draft controls combustion air! Unless draft in your chimney never changes draft regulators are the only way to keep your equipment totally safe and efficient. Only one time in 26 years on tens of thousands of jobs has a barometric not saved fuel but in 100% of all cases it made equipment safer. But the option on that job that did't save fuel was kill the school kids or vent the equipment. The sad part was the energy auditor I was working for said he would have made more money if they had opted for the first. Didn't work with him anymore. Many get by for years not doing the job right, unfortunately it is the customer that settles for "that's just the way things are" or "you can't expect anything better" or "your high bills are high because of the weather and increase in fuel prices" etc.