have Munchkin, but not Vision I manual; can't change reset curve

Plumbob

We had a Munchkin installed last year. Since then I have been slowly learning about condensing and reset curves.

Last winter, the boiler generally ran 15-18 hrs/day (our thermostat is wired to stop and start the boiler, and it displays the time for which the boiler is on). This seems to me to indicate that the reset curve is set too high, which means we are not getting the full efficiency possible from a condensing boiler.

However, I don't know how to change it. My contractor says the manufacturer won't allow him to give me a Vision I manual, but he would be happy to come out and adjust the settings for a small fee.

Cost apart, there must be a better way to do this, because even after it has been changed once, it might have to be changed again (up or down) based on next winter's experience. I was trained as an engineer and I don't think this would be over my head; it seems pretty simple.

I cannot find a Vision I manual on the web either. So any hlep you may be able to provide in locating a hardcopy or electronic manual would be greatly appreciated.

Alan(CaliforniaRadiant)Forbes

Heat Transfer Products

I don't think anyone here on The Wall will give you that information although if you were my customer, I would.

Call someone in tech. support: 1-800-323-9651 at the factory.

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beeper

Wally if your installer calls me and agrees and feels you have

the abillity to reset your curve I will talk with him and then you and discuss this issue. Please have your installer call me 800-323-9651 ext.154 I will be in on Monday and then out for the rest of the week. jeff

Meow

Mike T., Swampeast MO

Reset Curve

Interesting that a certain boiler is designed to enable the user to introduce a parallel shift in the curve to achieve efficiency and comfort.

Why?

Because there is no indoor thermostat and only one circulator is assumed. Temperature in the space is flow proportionate.

Adjustment advice with ANY proportional burner system:

It's like a refrigerator--GIVE IT TIME TO ACHIEVE BALANCE!

--------------------------------------------

IF your Munchkin is a SINGLE zone system with ONE circulator, jump the t-t connections and ask for the instructions to adjust the curve...

Weezbo

so did the factory give you the info?

i am in Alaska and this topic interests me. so far all the squacking has yet to produce a vision one 2,3...class for the munchkin around here.

Wally Hoffmann

I haven't asked...

I haven't asked them. It seems to me that I am the one who paid for the boiler, but HTP is asking me to sit up and beg, and then maybe they will generously make an exception.

I am going to ask a friend with expertise in the legalities, whether someone who buys an item has no right to the instructions on how to operate that item. (I am not asking for proprietary design/manufacture information, just operating information.)

HTP's position seems to be designed to increase the income of contractors by requiring followup visits. Now I know that this is a forum for contractors and other professionals, but before you get mad at me, consider this: if I had known about this problem, I would not have bought a Munchkin. So maybe they (and you) will ultimately lose sales when customers find out about this.

If I had an external Tekmar controller, I could just download the manual as a PDF file.

jerry scharf_2

Did you ask why they won't do this

Wally,

Before you go threatening legal action, you might want to learn a bit about what is going on. HTP has made a business decision, one that I can understand. Tecmar has also made a business decision, one that I also understand. I will not argue right or wrong, HTP owns the manuals for it's products and has the right to license them as they desire.

What is your relationship with your installer? Why don't you want to work with him/her to allow you to make the changes. Since this will be the first time you will be playing with the setup, why wouldn't you want the people who installed it both talking with you about the changes you want to make? This would also make them able to step in should something not work out as you planned.

Seems like your cart is way ahead of your horse, IMO.

jerry

Plumbob

not threatening anything

> Wally,

>

> Before you go threatening legal action,

> you might want to learn a bit about what is going

> on. HTP has made a business decision, one that I

> can understand.


Sorry about any misunderstanding, I was not threatening legal action. I wanted to understand my rights before I talked to HTP, since their post above basically says "plead, and maybe we'll grant your request". As a customer, that rubs me the wrong way.

> HTP owns the manuals for

> it's products and has the right to license them

> as they desire.


Well, it was not clear to me that when I bought a Munchkin, I did not buy access to operating instructions. This is not usual and customary for products normally sold in the US.

> What is your relationship with

> your installer? Why don't you want to work with

> him/her to allow you to make the changes. Since

> this will be the first time you will be playing

> with the setup, why wouldn't you want the people

> who installed it both talking with you about the

> changes you want to make? This would also make

> them able to step in should something not work

> out as you planned.


I have no problem with being shown how to do it, and with paying for that visit; that seems reasonable and is just as good as a manual if I can write it all down. The installer says he's not allowed to do what you are suggesting.

It is probably true that I have not begged and pleaded with him. I have this naive attitude that businesses are supposed to keep the customer happy, not the other way around.

Mark Eatherton1

Just because you own a Mucnhkin...

doesn't neccessarily mean you have a Vision 1 control on board....

In re-reading the threads, I didn't see where anyone from HTP was asking you to beg. Jeff simply offered to talk with the original installer.

I'm not sure I'd want any of my customers attempting to program the V1 control, and many of them ARE mechanical engineers.

In your original post, you stated that the boiler ran too long. Was your house uncomfortable? Were your gas bills higher than usual? You may not even have a problem.

If you turn the reset curve UP, your thermostat may be satisfied quicker, but with this type of boiler, it will modulate around a constantly changing set point. It is MADE to run all the time, preferrably at idle, thereby countering the losses of the home which are continuous, with the utmost of efficiency.

I may have misread the post, but that's my $0.02 worth.

Correct me if I'm wrong.

ME

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Wally Hoffmann_2

huh??????

> In your original post, you stated

> that the boiler ran too long.


If I had said that, I would be a moron, and a danger to myself and those around me. Fortunately, however, I did not say that.

jackchips_2

So what did you

mean by 15/18 hours per day and you want to change it?

Is it because you think it runs to long or not long enough?

I'm with ME. I didn't see any begging required, just a professional asking you to continue to proceed in a professional manner.

Mad Dog

Stop with the lawyer angle

Its ruining this country. The boys at Munchkin will get you through this. Speak to Jeff or Chuck Shaw. If I were the contractor, and YOU were correct, there would be NO charge for the set up. If things were set optimally, you should have NO problem paying for the call - fair enough? Mad Dog

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Dave Yates (PAH)

count me

on board with with HTP on this issue. When we install a product like the Munchkin, we're on the hook for the warranty period we offer that covers everything, including labor, for a set period of time. Having a homeowner diddle with the V-1 control during this warranty period would void our warranty. Same goes for our systems incorporating Tekmar controls, which, BTW, can be locked-out to avoid tampering with our settings.

Speaking from personal experience, I've seen more than a few products run to ruin by homeowners who thought they knew as much as we did regarding how to set controls or operate mechanical equipment. In almost every instance, these same people expect either the manufacturer or the mechanical contractor (or their insurance co) to pay for their ineptitude.

Try getting the auto manufacturers to give you the codes for accessing their electronics that govern combustion. The day and age of backyard weekend motor-heads has all but disappeared as technology crept into the operation of the combustion engine. Like it or not, the need for conservation of fuel is driving our industry in the same direction. Same applies to refrigeration circuitry and controls. Then there's the refrigerant licensing issues.

Where we used to spend a few hundred dollars a year for training, we now spend many thousands of dollars per year keeping abreast of the ongoing changes in PHVAC equipment.

You might be capable of programming the V-1 properly, then again, you might not be. I'm not clear on how HTP is supposed to know that without your demonstrating an understanding of not just the control's technology, but also the fundamentals of hydronics. I don't see their witholding access to the V-1 as trying to squeeze customers for more money or some sort of collusion set up to fatten contractor's wallets.

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Murph'_5

My thoughts are...

someone that needs help will not post a false email addy. If they are so inclined and serious about receiving help they would set up a temporary email to check or forward, then cancel if they were worried by spam.

Apperently someone is a little bored and has decided to bash HTP (and the trade in general) for amusement! I could be wrong, but thats my take on it!!


Murph' (SOS)

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R. Kalia_2

firmware design

As I understand it, the Vision I firmware allows you to change some parameters that could damage the boiler if changed by someone who does not know what he/she is doing.

Frankly I think this could be done much more intelligently by HTP. All that is needed is a set of "user settings" and a separate, locked set of "installer settings". And certainly the reset curve should be an user setting---there isn't much one could do to cause damage, as long as the water temperature has some hard upper limit lower than the boiling point. Tekmar certainly allows homeowners to do that.

I agree that it is not reasonable to have the contractor come back to change the reset curve. The homeowner is the best person to set the reset curve, since he/she can monitor the daily performance as the OP has done.

R. Kalia_2

> What did you mean by 15/18 hours per day and you want to

> change it?

>

> Is it because you think it runs too long or not long enough?


From my first post: "This seems to me to indicate that the reset curve is set too high."

With a properly set reset curve, the thermostat should call for heat approx. 24 hours a day.

Dave Yates (PAH)

D'OH!

Sheriff Murph nabs the suspect by the scruff of the neck. Never thought to check the email, but the "nospam" part was last used by Chuckles. Humnnnnnnnnnnnnnn

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marc

owners manual

i am also a heating contractor, however we do not take the product I/O manuals from the homeowner, what if the system is out of warranty and you have someone else over to service the equipment, Oh just a second i will call up the man with instructions for my boiler, bull---- maybe the person who posted this topic has the munchkin with no reset, maybe that is why there are no instructions on the job for the (vision 1), either way as the owner of the equipment you are entitled to the instructions that come with the appliance, weather or not they are capable of understanding them is not our job. it is actually local code to have the I/O manuals at the appliance, not at the installers office or van. been there, late at night with no manuals, that sucks, marc

jerry scharf_2

back to the beginning

Wally,

Now that I reread your original post, I'm not sure there's anything wrong. You are runing a single point on/off thermostat control of your Vision1 system, not constant circulation.

IMO, outdoor reset is not designed to be a primary control strategy. That's what the thermostat, TRVs or other room sensing controls are for. Outdoor reset is a secondary control strategy to increase efficiency and comfort. If you got your wish of 100% duty cycle, you would lose the control authority of the primary control, which violates the design premise of the Vision 1 package (though they may not have thought of it this way.)

Without the primary control in place, the system may not be able to heat the house in various situations, and would not be able to address the issue of someone wanting it warmer today because it's raining and they feel cold.

I can't say whether 75% duty cycle is the right amount of primary control authority over the outdoor reset secondary control, but it doesn't sound too far off. Without better primary controls, I would certainly be nervous at 90% or higher duty cycle. There is some computable loss in efficiency from the boiler, but I see this as an issue of a simplistic control straregy and not one of a poorly adjusted outdoor reset curve.

In airplanes, you always trade performance and efficiency for control authority. I may need to buy more fuel or get there a bit slower, but I sure want the flight controls to be there with full authority when I need them. Make it a passenger airplane and it's 10x more true.

None of this will be in the Vision 1 manual, nor in most other documents about setting up outdoor reset curves. It's what you learn either by study, trial and error or the lore of those who have been doing this for a while. None of these are guaranteed to be right, but by discussing them in an open forum like this, the wheat usually does get sorted from the chaff.

I hope I wasn't too pendantic.

jerry

Wally Hoffmann_3

makes sense but

Everything you said makes sense, and no, it is not pedantic to understand and address the question, which you did! What you say makes sense; one shouldn't try to get to 100%. However, 90% is a much better place than <75%. Especially since the efficiency is higher if the water is cooler, and on some days much higher since it makes the difference between condensing and noncondensing.

So, following your explanation, I will not try to get to 100%, but I'd like to get closer.

jerry scharf_2

I didn't say that 90% was right

Wally,

You seem to interpret that I said that 90% duty cycle was correct. I explicitly did not say that. What I said is that if the duty cycle ever reached 90% or above, I would be concerned. When I say that, what I'm saying is that if I saw 90%, I would probably change the reset curve to lower the duty cycle. Without a significant amount of data collection, I would not dare to say what is a good range of target duty cycle for your house. It's the same as saying what's the right thermostat setting for your house.

If you have the V1 package, you should be able to hook up a PC and collect the data from the boiler. I don't think this is protected. With this, I would run for an entire heating season and see per day how many hours the system ran at x% thermostat call for heat in 5% buckets. Then you can make a change and see how the next year turns out. Never get too high, so you still know the tstat has the authority the system is designed for. You will also be able to see the return temperatures you are getting and thus get some sense of the efficiency gained.

IMO, as a rough approximation, reset curves should be modified either annually or daily. I'm crazy enough to think about going the daily route, but sane people shouldn't go there.

If you're running below 75% duty cycle, then it could probably be bumped a bit. Doing this with your installer seems like the right way to go for me. Getting a call to HTP tech support where you get to listen in would be great. Getting serious about getting and understading the data will make it clear to all that you are an important part of the process of tuning your system. Who plugs the numbers into the unit is a very small piece of the project!

wishing you the best,

jerry

jerry scharf_2

setback??

Wally,

One other thought.

You say you have a fancy digital thermostat. Are you doing programmed setback with it? If so, it will gaurantee an artifically low duty cycle. The farther you go into the shoulder season, the more it will reduce the duty cycle. Also, with the setback, you have to set the reset curve higher to get acceptable recovery from the setback temperature.

You begin to see why I dislike thermostats, and especially fancy digital ones. No matter how smart you make them, there is only 1 bit of data coming out. That's not much to have a smart boiler make decisions on.

jerry


jerry

Mark Eatherton1

I have a set back on my V 1...

and it confuses the hell out of the thermostat. THe thermostat doesn't know that there ISN'T a bang bang device on the other end of the line. It's an intelligent ramping device, and it STILL hasn't figured out what's going on. Not a good combination...IMHO

ME



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Boilerpro_3

A possible way to make it work, ME

Shut off the "intelligent Recovery" feature and just used a fixed recovery period..Lets say start the heat at 5 am each day for warm up by 7am. Since you probably have your fixed heating curve up about 30% above your steady state needs to provide some speed to recovery, they should then work together in almost all weather. In warm weather the reset temp is lower, but the relative extra capcity to recovery the space is still 30%. In cold weather, the reset temp is higher, but again it is still 30%higher than steady state, so the recovery time should stay about the same.
Another thought. With the older tekmars there is the occuppied heating curve and the unoccuppied heating curve. I then use two stage stats. When using setback stats with these controls, I use the occupied curve for occupied heating, however, I use the unoccuppied curve(its really just an override curve) for recovery. The thermostat first stage calls on the occupied curve, the second stage the unoccupied, now recovery overide curve. I don't know the Vision control , but maybe this same concept could be applied. You would at least get somewhat integrated control.

Boilerpro

Mike T., Swampeast MO

That's Exactly Why...

...it makes such good sense when you have a modulating burner to give EASY access to the reset curve--particularly the parallel shift. A "Warmer-Cooler" dial is all it takes, and for parallel shift it's no more difficult than making the boiler "think" the temperature outside is different than actual.

As long as you're "fooling" the boiler itself this way, even those systems that provide multiple temperatures via boiler-linked mixing devices should still work fine.

Wally Hoffmann_4

no setback

No, I am not doing setback---as you say, this doesn't work well with outdoor reset. The thermostat is left over from the previous installation, but it isn't really doing much. I like the usage tally on it, though.

heretic

Even if you had the user manual, it would do you no good without an access code.

I sympathize. I bought a Munchkin in anticipation of the Vision controls, which had not yet shipped at the time. It was the top reason on my list for going with HTP. Now, I hesitate to upgrade to it. Hate to lose the many advantages of controlling temp at the boiler, but Tekmar downstream is looking better now.

I don't like black boxes, and I don't want to be held hostage to my installer. Business relationships do not always work out, contractors go out of business or drop product lines, and authorized Vision contractors can be few and far between. If something goes wrong, I need to be able to troubleshoot it. In the end, I own the equipment, and I am stuck with it for the long haul.

I do not think shutting out the hydronic enthusiast in this way is a good business strategy, since they are the early adoptors, and generate the best word of mouth marketing. Void part of my warranty if you must, but not this.

I have another boiler to replace, and will probably pass on buying another HTP over this 'philosophical' issue.

Dave_35

I agree

A friend had a Munchkin put in by the "qualified" HTP installer. This guy shows up as #1 when doing a search on the HTP website in our area. No prim/sec, system overheats in seconds and goes out on high limit with only 1 or 2 zones calling. Also, had a unresolved problem with the blower proving switch that we took care of ourselves. So I would have little faith in him adjusting the reset curve. Maybe I can invite him over for dinner and some Munchkin training.

Plumbob

Tekmar w/Munchkin

> Now, I hesitate to upgrade to [Vision I]. Hate to

> lose the many advantages of controlling temp at

> the boiler, but Tekmar downstream is looking

> better now.


The problem with a Tekmar is that it works by turning a boiler on and off, with the boiler's target water temperature set higher than the Tekmar will ever want to go (say 180). So, from the boiler's point of view, the water is always too cold, so it always runs the burners full blast. In other words, you lose the advantage of modulation. Tekmars work fine with nonmodulating boilers. The Vision I is integrated with the boiler and so it runs the modulating burner intelligently.

Apparently Tekmar has a model on the drawing boards (263) that will send an analog signal to control any modulating burner. However, the Munchkin/Pinnacle don't have the necessary an analog input connector; I suspect HTP doesn't want people to use other manufacturers' products.

My suggestion would be to get a Vision I but make clear that you want the docs and access code. My contractor says he has no problem doing this for me.

Of course, you can buy a Tekmar on the open market and install it yourself (trivial), whereas no one will sell you a Vision I.

heretic

I understand the advantages, but it will still modulate. The Munchkin will fire just enough to maintain the (fixed)set output temperature. What you lose is the condensing advantage from the low operating temps when on reset. Have to run boiler hot enough to supply the (high temp) DHW at all times.

Plumbob

The Munchkin will only modulate based on its own set point. If you attach a Tekmar, you have to set the Munchkin set point high enough for DHW and let the Tekmar control the temperature by on/off. For example, the Munchkin may be set at 180, but the Tekmar will keep turning the Munchkin on and off during space heating to maintain 110 reset temperature because it is not that cold outside. Well, the Munchkin sees that the water is far from 180, so it constantly blasts the burner at 100%. There is no modulation. It only modulates when it is allowed to approach 180, but the Tekmar doesn't let it go there except very briefly, for DHW. So the modulation feature is essentially disabled when you use a Tekmar.

What you appear to be saying is that the Munchkin modulates fine when used on its own (without a Tekmar). That is correct. But as you say, you then have to set it high enough for DHW. A Tekmar will let you run the water warm for space heating, and hot for DHW. You will save money and gain comfort. But you'll lose the burner modulation during space heating.

Weezbo

Wally....

i have been home sick for almost a work week now:( i had attended a Caleffi controls class and another for Trouble shooting the triangle tube class also. the controls that are comming out now are starting to show a slight bit of sophistication and require a bit of training....not that the end user is devoid of a brain or unable to fathom the minor technicalities..it is however easier for the manufactures to deal with education of the contractors than say the general public at large.some items make immediate sence to say a person who uses certain terminology daily verses someone who only has a specific interest and is reasearching the topic. i think the manufactures are genuinely interested in presenting thier products in the best light possible and have a certain reluctance in having to pay the price of education both in time and resources of experimenting experientialists...so,if there is no way to particularily fornicate with the product they probably reason whatever does go wrong must be one of a limited number of reasons...and be able to basically determine specificaly what that reason is with a little thread of accurate information....you indeed have given me another viewpoint worth considering..thanks.