kitec tubing failure

mark_41

we have installed kitec orange (polyethylene/aluminum)piping in an open loop heating/domestic water system in residential housing project. the piping is developing black spots which develop into leaks. the entire piping system is catching the black spot disease. any insite.

Ken_8

Don't tell me...

You bought the entire package from Radiantec in VT?

Whether you did or not; open systems are bad news in any venue. The remaining tubing may be saved, but not with an open system!

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mark_41

not bought in vermont, but a similar rep in seattle. This was an engineered project (not our design) now we have had several pipe failures. This is a big project. Any idea on the cause?

Dave Yates (PAH)

wow

I'd be more concerned about that "black spot disease" in an open system than tubing failure.

Here's a link you might find interesting:

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/england/cumbria/3476165.stm



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Unknown

I don't know

I can't say for sure, but I bet you'd solve whatever it is by installing a heat exchanger and preventing new water from entering the system.

Any idea what kind of water quality they have?

mark_41

water

this is on the city water system. we don't have problems with hard water or anything out here. Our main problem is the design. Basically using a high temp water heater for the domestic and heating, creating an open system. A mixing valve was installed to temper the domestic. This is a big deal. This was installed in approx 500 low income houses.

kevin coppinger_4

> this is on the city water system. we don't have

> problems with hard water or anything out here.

> Our main problem is the design. Basically using

> a high temp water heater for the domestic and

> heating, creating an open system. A mixing valve

> was installed to temper the domestic. This is a

> big deal. This was installed in approx 500 low

> income houses.





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kevin coppinger_4

How about the circ....

size? Is there a VERY large circ on the system? That might cause erosion on the pipe???? kpc

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Unknown

hey,

right or not, nice thought! black aluminum sounds like some kind of oxidation but I was trying to figure out how it could possibly get to the aluminum. Nice call! I guess it would either be that or some kind of delamination issue?

hr

Have you contacted Kitec?

That's where I would start. That tube should be potabale water approved. Any testing done on the water itself?

hot rod

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S Ebels

If you find out............

I would REALLY like to know what is causing this. There are a couple of oputdoor wood "boiler outfits around here that install a ton of Kitec on these open systems. I have seen what you are describing once. Never did hear back on what was done to resolve the issue.

Brian (Tankless)

500 houses !

You'd better start hiring, NOW!, because you have a lot of work ahead of you converting them all using flatplates or some other isolation system.

Low-cost housing or anything else for that matter, is never low cost, especially when you have to do it twice.

My Mom lives close (Wallsend-on-Tyne) to the folk in Barrow-in-Furness, Cumbria, who died as a result of cost-cutting. Fortunately for her (and us) my brother David, is an extremely competent & conscientious "Corgi" gas appliance & radiant installer.

"Ignorance is sometimes acceptable as an excuse, stupidity, NEVER".

"Maybe it won't happen here" is not an excuse.

The folk who approved these "black-spot" systems are in for a troubled future, and you had better get ready for a lot of work.

Need a hand re-piping? e-mail me or I'll give you my ph #

Brian in radiant-free Swampland.

mark_41

kitec

if i was to guess it kooks like electrolsis

mark_41

kitec

the piping system is +-200' of 1/2" /1/25 16 gpm 15'hd pump. there are 5-7 heater/unit most are 2 story.

mark_41

kitec

looks like burns, when pipe fails the pipe blisters.

Dave Yates (PAH)

500 homes!

Mark,

You're sitting on a potential powder keg with respect to the water contamination issues. Who advised you that open systems were the way to go? Document that information if you can. I agree with HR that contacting the manufacturer ASAP is a good idea.

No matter the tubing solution, isolation of the potable/hydronic waters is the only way to adequately protect your customer's health from system contamination in dual use applications.

Here's a link for inexpensive test kits.

http://www.indoorairtest.com/legionella.asp

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mark_41

thanks for the link. please remember this was not a "design/build" project. we installed what was specified, submitted and approved. The manufacturer is aware of this issue.

Mike Kraft_2

What pray tell...............

is Kitec saying?I have currently(2 years) been installing multi-cor and you have my attention.The installs I am applying are closed systems.

I agree with the delamination.I cant remeber if you posted the water temps.Can't imagine you're exceeding the ratings.Can the system(I'm sure it can $$$$$$$)be isolated with HX's?I feel for you man.........this is one that will keep sleep away.Maybe time for a lawyer.

Ken you enjoying yourself?(G)CU man.

cheese

hr

Maybe they have the building grounded through the kitec

or a lightning strike?

hot rod

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hr

Or maybe Kitec

has subed out some work to Goodyear

hot rod

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Dave Yates (PAH)

An isolated single-case

might well be lightning related (see CSST article on lightning splitting open SS tube), but this sounds like it's affecting too many of the installations. No matter that it's not a D/B project, Mark needs to cover his butt regarding liability - if that's possible.

For your part Mark, you might want to document when, if ever (before today), you were alerted to potential problems with open systems. If, as you say, this was the specified installation method, that should be documented as clearly as possible.

If it were me, I'd be sending the original specifier a registered letter stating that their original design is flawed and that open systems potentially present a life-threatening situation and that they are responsible for paying to correct the defect.


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jackchips_2

Ouch,

but very funny hot rod.

Dan Peel

How Hot?

What are the stacked maximum temperatures those water heaters are showing the tubing? What you are dealing with sure sounds like excessive heat/pressure combinations under specific operating conditions. What's the fuel, what's the actual entering water temp and where in the system did this show up first? Dan

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Weezbo

I saw a piece of Kitec....

produced by a water softener water treatment system sales man. he showed us the build up in some pipe due to water quality issues..i asked him say do you know that is lead that was used to burn that copper fitting together? that seemed to Blow right by him...then he said this is standard installation practices used by a large housing construction company in the USA.... like That was supposed to hoe a row of beans with me....to me it really seems to indicate that given the hurry up and lets get this job done yesterday...approach very simple aspects are overlooked...because Thats not what people are looking to see. honestly for all i know someone sabatogued your jobs out of spite.perhaps during one of the testing procedures the compressor used shot oil into the lines...maybe the water quality is such that you had inadvertently hydrostatically tested and it was left to open air in conditions that produced various spores or water based organisms...what can be done? first ask the manufacturer if they have had Any similar problems with thier product....then put all your procedures under a microscope...if indeed neither of these is the case....perhaps it is sabotuers at work. these can come from many directions,someone recommending you install the system with 295¡ãF water or something like you neednt concern yourself with that aspect in the bidd process...ultimately you got to deal with it....if indeed you have an open system where you have no back flow preventor or cross contamination then you will have to immediately address That problem....double wall heat exchangers might be the quick fix then again it might not be that simple.abandoning the system inplace might be the only acceptable remedyfor you,and the happy homeowners. I have Seen some terrible water, people 'think' to be tolerable drinking water ...munis arent somehow Magically exempt from cross contamination ....some water treatment is fairly questionable to me ...early in the mornings the water quality is really bad in my dads neighbourhood..i have no idea what it would do to the kitec....certain fluxes are particulairily agressive...you need to get a water quality sample Survey done.,what a drag....whatever is in the system will need to be flushed prior to running it thru heat X ers or they will be ruined very quickly....and if you can get around it with heat exchangers then i might suggest you drift the temps way way down....i have seen some annodes that turned aluminium black,and i have seen aluminum look like normal and be something that you could grind into a powder with your thumb and fore finger....there are micro organisms that live in oil that EAT metal....i have operated sewage treatmentplants and here in the north we get to study a variety of uncommon problems...so far i cant seem to derive what the specific cause is...once you have determined that you can formulate a plan of action. i trust you find the cause...let us all know what it turns out to be... could save us all a bunch of grief...

Paul Pollets

Say Joe....

Got your message on my cell regarding this issue. Feel free to call me in the shop after 7:30AM at 206-783-4315.
BTW, Wallies, This man is a very good friend and associate of mine. We worked together in Local 32 as well as for another Seattle radiant company.

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jerry scharf_2

Did the manufacturer take samples for testing

I would not accept a phone discussion. For 500 houses, the tubing manufacturer should have an engineer on an airplane, and be ready to take damaged tubing samples and anything else they can get back to the lab. Only then can you get a real answer on what is the cause of the damage. It's their reputation on the line!

Even if the open system is not the cause of the tubing failure, that still needs to be addressed.

jerry

mark_41

kitec

the domestic water is copper. is the elec. grounding to it?maybe. I'v looked and cannot tell. I think code requires grounding of the copper. the copper and kitec meet at the hydro panel.

mark_41

kitec

kitec has been notified. the water heaters are set at 140.
no water testing done yet.

mark_41

kitec

max temp 14o fuel ng problem begin at kitec loop at hwh to hydro panel

bill clinton_3

Kitek failure

Look close at chlorine levels. Take some chlorinated water, add heat, run it through plastic tube for a few years, particularly older versions of plastic tube not formulated specifically for chlorine and what you get is likely what you got. How long have these systems been in operation.

Also pay attention to possible legionella risk in open systems.

Heat exchangers are needed.

Bill

Dan Peel

fuzzy logic

140 is not even close to a "high temperature" water heater design number. Stat failure, internal scale etc. can cause overshoot and stacking, are you measuring or guessing at temperatures?. As most in this thread are suggesting you are either way over temp and possibly flashing to steam or there is electrolosis. How many "affected" units have there been and over what time frame? This is certainly of interest to many of us. dan

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George_10

We would like to help

Could you send us a one foot section of the tubing (with the spot)and a sample of the system water (water bottle from a gas market would be plenty).

From what I have read so far, there are three possible causes. Bad tubing due to who knows. Chemical or biological destruction.

We will test the samples at no cost and give you a report.
I am surprised that the tubing company has not had a person on site from their company. 500 homes is nothing to sneeze at.

Send the samples to Rhomar Water
PO Box 229
Springfield, MO 65801

I sincerely hope you can find a solution quickly and with the best outcome for all concerned.

mark_41

piping service

the system has been in operation for 5 years

bill clinton_3

five years, huh?

Fifty cents says it's chlorine.

Bill

bill clinton_3

five years, huh?

Fifty cents says it's chlorine.

Bill

mark_41

temperature is a guess

the systems have been in operation for 5 yrs. the problems started 12 mo. ago. six units have failed.

mark_41

ok

will send on friday 9-3

David Woycio

Kitec tubing failure

I am VERY interested in your findings with the Kitec failure you are experiencing. Has any more info. come to light or are you waiting for the water tests to come back. Please keep us posted.

Thanks,
Dave
Metro Solar Inc

mark_41

still waiting

water sample has been taken. waiting for results. kitec will be on site this week.

Matt Undy

Perhaps the fittings are done improperly and leaking between the layers then collecting at in certian spots forming the black spots. Either the inner layer got cut or its leaking directly into the end.

Maybe even better its inbetween the innr layer and the AL and the blakc spots are where the AL has corroded through.

Matt

tim smith

black spots??

I am betting on electrolysis, I have seen aluminum show signs of electrolysis with a blackening of the aluminum. Yes the copper is bonded to the electrical system as required by code. The current may be crossing over to the aluminum from the copper and causing this. Tough one to chase down. Been on jobs where they could not find where the current was jumping and the copper was developing pin holes also. Good luck.