Expansion tank orientation?

Dan_8

Does the orientation matter on a bladder type expansion tank: water side tapping up, down or sideways? Up always seemed like the right choice to me but I've seen a bunch of systems pictured here with the tapping down or sideways and it just seems to me that it would retain a big air bubble that way. Just curious...

tommyoil

no matter

I try to have them standing straight up or hanging straight down. Its of no consequense though. I try to avoid sideways(although it will work just fine) in case they blow and fill w/ water. Depending on what they are hanging from it may just snap off.

hr

Best to hang them

down preferably off a sturdy enough line to support them when filled with water. As someday they all are

If you hang them sidways they need to have an adequate support. Large loop hangers work nicely and look good. All thread and loop hangers work.

I'm not sure upside down is acceptable for positioning. I'd like to here that from a manufacture. Sure does make a mess when you have to change a waterlogged upside down mounted tank!

If you need a large size I'd suggest a floor mount model to avoid all the above questions. Real easy to PAP to them on the floor.

The HDS software takes into account the mounting location when figuring the size, by the way. www.hydronicpros.com

hot rod

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Unknown

I would always try

to go with what the manufacturer wants - usually hanging down , not at a dead end pipe . But going by experience , we take em out in every position and they all seem to last the same amount of time . We took out this boiler last week , the expansion tank had a date of 1994 , still had pressure in the bladder . I'd hate to think what would happen if the tank water logged - the band iron wasn't supporting it at all .

Dan_8

Thanks

Thanks for the replies. I've mostly seen them vertical but some of the jobs here have shown them in other orientations so I figured it was okay, just didn't understand why I guess.

When empty of water and pressurized on the bladder side is the water side volume pretty much zero? That is, does the bladder push right over against the inside walls of the vessel? If it does that then I was visualizing it wrong and I guess there wouldn't be much of a bubble regardless of orientation. I see what you mean about supporting it though.

So many pictures of nice jobs here that I end up with little questions like that. Thanks to all of you for taking the time to answer.

Dan_8

Holy smokes...

That thing was a piece of work... So many things wrong it hurts the eyes. Bet the homeowner was pretty happy when you were done.

Boilerpro_3

And how bout how to connect to the system!

It's funny that nearly everyone makes their air separators with a 1/2 inch tapping on the bottom to screw the tank into. Ever think what happens with it there? Since the air separator also tends to separate dirt, all the dirt goes into the tank to help puncture the bladder. If you take a look at the installation recommendation for large bladder or diaphragm tanks they are always piped off the top or the side of the main with an air vent to keep the connecting line free of air. Check out B&G's piping layouts. I use the ole IAS model with 3/4 inch tapping on top and connect my water and tank at this point with the tank connection up (that's were Amtrol want them, I believe).

Boilerpro

tommyoil

good points

Pro,
I have been hanging them from my spirovents(1/2" tapping) for a long time without any negative results (that I know of). I also bring my feeder into the same location, I never gave any thought to the dirt aspect though, Good point. Its something I'll definately have to consider in the future. I pull and check pressure on my tanks w/ a digital pressure gauge( 0-100 psi w/ 1/2 lb increments) anytime I am doing service on the jobs and pump 'em up if I have to. To get around the pressure issue when removing the tank, I install a butterfly stop and waste valve that relieves the pressure, without a fuss, between the tank and the system. I've yet to have a dirt related problem and some have been in for 10+ years. Also is it an IAS or an EAS that you use? What is an IAS? The only time I use an EAS(B&G enhanced air separator)is if I leave a steel tank in the ceiling at which point I'll install a tank fitting as well and pipe off the 3/4" tapping that the EAS affords me up to the tank. Sound about right to you(and everyone else)? You have some valid points w/ regard to the dirt.Thanks for the lesson. Now that its in my head...ITS MINE!

Boilerpro_3

The IAS

> Pro, I have been hanging them from my

> spirovents(1/2" tapping) for a long time without

> any negative results (that I know of). I also

> bring my feeder into the same location, I never

> gave any thought to the dirt aspect though, Good

> point. Its something I'll definately have to

> consider in the future. I pull and check pressure

> on my tanks w/ a digital pressure gauge( 0-100

> psi w/ 1/2 lb increments) anytime I am doing

> service on the jobs and pump 'em up if I have to.

> To get around the pressure issue when removing

> the tank, I install a butterfly stop and waste

> valve that relieves the pressure, without a fuss,

> between the tank and the system. I've yet to have

> a dirt related problem and some have been in for

> 10+ years. Also is it an IAS or an EAS that you

> use? What is an IAS? The only time I use an

> EAS(B&G enhanced air separator)is if I leave a

> steel tank in the ceiling at which point I'll

> install a tank fitting as well and pipe off the

> 3/4" tapping that the EAS affords me up to the

> tank. Sound about right to you(and everyone

> else)? You have some valid points w/ regard to

> the dirt.Thanks for the lesson. Now that its in

> my head...ITS MINE!

Boilerpro_3

The IAS

Is B&G's economy air separator, priced comparatively to the air scoops (about 15 bucks) but works on a completely different principal which I don't really have down yet. It uses two chambers with an orifice between. It probably uses the ventiuri effect to create a very low pressure point to pull the air out of solution. All I really know is that they seem to work alot better than air scoops.
I belive they stopped making the smaller sizes with a 3/4 inch tapping, so I bought up a bunch for future use.

Just don't forget you airtrol fitting for the tank, it helps keep the air in the tank better and has a vent going up so you can dran the tank when necessary.


Yeah, ounce you have it in your head (or heart) it is YOURS!

Boilerpro

tommyoil

Did you

Ever use or hear of the EAS? If you havent, check one out. Usually special order. Lots more than $15.00, believe me, plus they are HUGE. They really look like monsters hanging on the supply. I sacrifice look for performance here. But they work like a charm. As you said, a tank fitting ALWAYS w/ the steel tank. I pipe the 3/4" off the top of the EAS to the tank and bring the feeder into the bottom tapping of the EAS. So far so good.

hr

Where is the dirt coming from?

New systems with a good flush and a hydronic cleaner used should be dirt and sediment free. A good inhibitor chemical treatment will keep them that way.

Possibly and old system boiler upgrade could produce some bladder nasties. A good Y strainer should trap and protect the tank, pump and other components in that case.

Spirotherm also makes a good sediment trap, basically a Spiro vent upside down

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Dan_8

catch the dirt...

If dirt is a problem could you just drop a mud leg in directly under the air scoop and move the tank off to the side with a tee? I guess you'd have to hold the tank up with a bracket or strap if you did that so maybe the air vent and top tapping would be easier? Just a thought.

Boilerpro_3

Used several EAS's

and they work really good. I had a local plumbing contractor watch in amazement when I turned on the pumps of a newly converted steam system in a 12,000 sq ft builsing and listen to the EAS blast air out through the big vent. The system was clear within minutes. That contractor has since referred a large number of staem and hot water systems my way. Of course it helped too when the owners got the first years gas bills together and saw a 75% reduction in gas usage after the new heating plant was in after replacing a 15 year old WM LGB or MGB steamer with two little Dunkirk Plymouth boilers and a basic tekmar Boiler staging control with setback.

Boilerpro

Boilerpro_3

I've done that with theEAS

> If dirt is a problem could you just drop a mud

> leg in directly under the air scoop and move the

> tank off to the side with a tee? I guess you'd

> have to hold the tank up with a bracket or strap

> if you did that so maybe the air vent and top

> tapping would be easier? Just a thought.

Boilerpro_3

I've done that with theEAS

On an big (6 inch main) old converted gravity system. Have a nice big leg down to the floor under the EASwith a drain and a seperate floor mounted compression tank about 3 feet high and 18 inches in diameter.

Biolerpro

Boilerpro_3

Old systems, mainly

and learning the use of cleaners, not just a water flush, on new systems. Y strainers will keep out the big stuff, but the fine stuff will still make it through.

I recently saw the spirtotherm sediment trap. The Rolairtrol also have a setup for really big jobs.

Boilerpro

Boilerpro_3

A picture of my typical tank hook up...NM

Dan_8

Ahhh... that's nice

I remember that system well. It's the one that gave me my sub-mixing epiphany. Very nice. I hope you don't mind but I pilfered the basic design for my own mixing loop here at the house.

I can vaguely remember scratching my head and wondering what was going on behind the expansion tank but I completely understand now. I like it. Can't really go that way with a SpiroVent I think? You'd have to build it in down line a bit or something.

My system here is very much the standard setup for the expansion tank. I just slung it under the spirovent. From what you've said though I'll may give some thought to altering it at some point (apologies for the temporary insulation in this picture...).

Also I tacked on a picture of my homage to your system. I haven't added the sub-mixing zones yet but they're in the planning stages and the stubs to support them are there.

Dan_8

EAS

Just looked at the EAS brochure:

http://fhaspapp.ittind.com/literature/files/781.pdf

I particularly like that you could use it to turn the corner at the high side of the primary loop (bottom and side inlets). I wish that I had seen it before putting my system together. Probably no reason you couldn't tie the expansion tank and fill in off the back side tap if you did that too. Nice stuff.

Boilerpro_3

Thanks, Dan

It always feels good to do someone some good. I've got some new ideas mixed with old on some recent installs...I'll post those soon... to simplify the piping a bit.

Boilerpro

Dan_8

I should be thanking you...

Many thanks to you and to everyone here. Nowhere like The Wall for that kind of inspiration.

I'm definitely looking forward to seeing the new stuff. Just don't let me see anything that's so good it'll make me want to start hacking into mine, I'm already on the hairy edge with my hydronics habit ;')

jerry scharf_2

I live near san francisco

We use tanks whether they are straight or gay...

My best idea right now is to hang the tank upside down with a combined isolation valve/purge to connect. Also, given the tendency of things to shake now and then, strapping them solidly is a given.

jerry

Dan_8

Code issues?

And I think that code (except in MA) still only allows you to install unions on the straight ones.

Sorry, couldn't resist...